SPEAKER_00 0:00

We ask officers to stand between order and chaos, but when they're abandoned by the very system they serve, the consequences don't stop with them. They reach into our homes, our families, and the future of this country. Today I'm joined by Jason Harris, a man who has spent a lifetime on the front lines, from the United States Army to 26 years in law enforcement, including canine operations and service as a task force officer with U.S. Marshals. He's here to talk about moral injury, organizational betrayal, and what it really costs to hold the line. This is Extreme Sensibility. Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for having me. So let's start off. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Well, I uh was born in California, but grew up here in Arkansas. Kind of, you know, not from a rich or rich household, anything like that. Grew up in a trailer park, you know, but uh knew when I turned 18, I think my mom, we were single family. I went to the military, um, the army for four years, became a CAF scout, um, came home, was really just invested in that. I loved finding that needle in the haystack. I love getting out and being the boots on the ground and that uh discipline and the teamwork that came with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Um, so I joined my law enforcement agency in 2000 and uh spent, you know, did my time on patrol, uh, did 14 years with on the as a canine officer. And the last eight years I have spent being a task force officer with the United States Marshal Service.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Cool, cool. Well, you know, you talk about your military service. Obviously, a lot of law enforcement starts out military, right? Transfers over. You mentioned, you know, uh in your CAF Scout days, you know, some of the techniques and and skills that you learned with that, you know, finding that needle in the haystack. Um, you know, in doing that, uh, you know, what were some of the other things that you brought over? I know discipline's one of them, right? Kind of the team uh effort that goes into uh military and law enforcement. Um, but in getting out in the real world, you know, uh getting out on patrol, what are some of the other things?

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Yeah, it's definitely, you know, you have to have a mental mindset. You know, you're you're definitely bringing, you know, you had you had the upbringing in church. Um I went away from that for a while. Um, but you still have morals as people. You know, I'm still an American. I love this country. And you have to take those morals and your beliefs, and whether in the military or as a uniformed officer, you're going to put that to test. Those go together.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

You know, I've got I'm gonna apply that badge and that uniform with my morals, and sometimes that doesn't mix.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:13

You know, sometimes those organizations have different values, they see different things, they want you to react right to the public in a different manner that goes against your values, goes against your morals, or it could be vice versa. You know, and so you've got to have that mindset of wanting to and you're and you're dealing with people's problems every day.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

You know, yeah, you got your own problems at home.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

You're carrying a double load. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, the the cool thing, you know, my grandfather actually, you know, he was with state police and uh was one of the first canine guys as well, uh, kind of brought that in to Arkansas. Um so canine's special. Yeah, you know, you got a partner there that doesn't have to go by our compasses or our pressure, they're as as real as it gets. Yeah. Um kind of how did your canine partner sometimes approach things or cause you to approach things differently?

SPEAKER_04 5:09

You know, sometimes it it's sad to say, but I found faith more in my canine partner than I did some other partners on the street, some more human partners. I knew when I popped that door and it was time to go to work, he was gonna be right beside me.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

You know, um, I think today, you know, we see, you know, a lot of that decay because of social media, because of the news. People are afraid to act, they're afraid to police anymore.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

You know, and uh so yeah, but having that dog, you know, you knew what you had.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

You knew what you were getting.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Yeah, I trained him, I'd seen him work, you know. I he had no training when I got him. So everything that was invested in him, I knew his capabilities, his limits, right, just like the military when they invested in me.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

You know, they're gonna push you to a point. And and we all break.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah. You gotta find where it lies. Yeah. You know, and a lot of times it's beyond what you perceive initially. Yeah, but you gotta find that that point. Yeah, the the canine units have always fascinated me, you know, both military and uh, you know, in law enforcement, you know, just that partnership. I've gotten the ability to um or the uh the privilege to operate with some really amazing dogs in the field, you know, as far as hunting. And when you've got a dog dialed in, when you've got a partner like that, just like you said, you don't have to question their loyalty. And they're doing what they want to do as well. They're performing where they're designed to perform, yeah, and just see that all click is is pretty powerful.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Yeah, and for the public, you know, for the public to did so many demonstrations at schools and church events, and you know, you have the public chime in that we had a his bulletproof vest donated to us. Yeah, you know, and and when I f first got on canine, that wasn't a thing. Right. You know, you you were willing to sacrifice your dog if you had to. You didn't want to, right, but you know, when those vests came around and and you really people got a lot of sport and steam, right, you know, in in caring for those officers, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

And even, you know, and and you we get into the psychology involved with dealing with trauma and dealing with the day-to-day pressures, you know. I know what I get from my pets, and you've got a partner and a pet, you got someone that's there to listen. Yeah. They might not be able to respond, you know, talking to you, but you know they're you they can pick up on your energy.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Well, and you know, and mine, you know, he was um we made officer of the year. He was the first canine in our agency to be recognized as canine of the year.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

Um, and that was a privilege. I had him for eight years and then uh outworking him one day, had a tumor on his spleen that the vet had missed and killed over right in front of me. Oh, good. Had to carry him back to my car, load him up, take him the vet, you know, and a couple weeks later had to make that decision. And like you said, this is an animal that people, you know, it's just a dog, and I know the bunch of dog lovers out there, but was willing to sacrifice himself for me. Without question. Without question.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Well, let's talk about where you're at right now. So uh we've mentioned you know, moral injury, organizational betrayal. That's an important topic now in law enforcement and in the military. So let's talk about how you ended up where you're at and what you're working on.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Yeah, so it's been a blessing. It took me a minute to get here. Um, I was in uh June 24th of 2024. We were doing an operation, federal operation, um, called North Star. Um it was a nationwide operation put on by the U.S. Marshal Service. Had a simple fall, broke my shoulder, um, which was ended up being a full rotator cuff tear, uh full upper bicep tear. The uh next day, a guy that I'd look for, a suspect I'd look for for probably about a year and a half, came on our radar. And we thought we're gonna go ahead and put him in the operation. We know where he's at. He had a violent history of murder. He's not, you know, at the Marshalls, we're not there to serve misdemeanor, traffic warrants.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

We're going to have people that when I we talked about that needle in the haystack, they don't want to be found. And so went and located him that day and ended up in a four-hour shootout. Um, that a couple of my team members were struck. Um, I was a team leader that day. And to go through that trauma, not to say that every officer hasn't seen something in their lives, you know, but I can tell you, I, you know, coming up as an officer, you're told to suppress it. You know, you can shove it, find that, find that place and put it away. That that's the old school way. And now we have wellness that has stepped in. Um, but you know, of all the times I've literally seen people take their own lives in front of me that was suppressed. And you go home and your family wants to talk about those things, but you have to give them the Disneyland version version of it.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah. You know, you're protecting them.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Yeah. And so for gosh, for a year and a half, you know, I my shoulder's broken, my wife travels. I'm sitting on the couch. I can't drive because it's my right arm. Uh, so I can't go. I knew something wasn't right. You know, of all the thousands of warrants we served, you always have an operation plan. And that day, A, B, and C didn't work. Four hours later, you're not even running an operation plan. You're in survival mode.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, and just so yeah, I mean, this made the news, obviously. This was a big deal. Yeah, full auto fire. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Weapons stuck stacked up at the door, full auto ARC.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

And went on for four hours. Yeah, four hours sustained serious gunfire.

SPEAKER_04 10:54

Yeah. And you, and you know, and you know, when you talk about public perception of that, you know, when that fight started, everybody wanted to come out and get on their phones. And so you're trying to handle business up front and trying to clear the public out from behind you.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

You know, and so we had to wait on other authorities to come back. And I think they set up a perimeter, it was probably about a half a mile because when you think about AR-15, yeah, five, five, six, zip.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, yeah, it'll it'll travel.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

Yeah. And you know, but people, you know, they want to see that, they want, but they don't understand. I I have to change directions. Now I not only am I focused on my bat, my target, and my guys taking rounds, right? I've got you behind me.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah, exactly. Complicated.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

And so when people think about an officer's mind or an agent's mind or an operator's mind SWAT team, um, there's a lot that goes in to just, oh, you were just there to handle that business. I had a lot more than that going on.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

A whole lot more. Yeah, yeah. And so going through all that with your injury, with that episode, with all the other things that led up to that as well, that you carried, you know, you had a realization.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I I'll tell you, coming here's one of the ones when when we talk about institutional or organizational betrayal, and you talk about a moral injury. So, yeah, out of that gunfight, I I was diagnosed with PTSD. I understand it now as not such a disorder, but more of PTSI. It's an injury.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

And you learn to live with it and focus on that. Um, what I had a hard time with was moral injury and organizational betrayal. In the middle of that gunfight, about an hour into it, I received a phone call that said, Have you fired around yet? And I said, Not yet. But in the back of my mind, you can think how that I switched gears from I'm involved in an action here, but my organization is worried about the reaction.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Exactly. They're already starting to calculate.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

So now you're really piling on pressure. Yeah, I need to take this shot if I can. We have every right, daily force is justified. He's already we've exchanged 600 rounds with this guy. We're we're justified. But the scrutiny, what am I gonna face when I come back? So not only do it did I have the public, I've got them cleared out, I've got my team, we're back in the fight, and then you receive a phone call, and that's where that organizational betrayal comes in is you feel man, mine what if I make the wrong shot?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Well, you know, it's not like the military, um, I've got people behind this guy. My our police, your shot has to count. Right. You you have to have that visible uh line of sight to take that shot.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

And so it it ate me up right there on the spot.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah, and that further complicates things. I mean that that's one of the things that in observing, you know, um what law enforcement's going through uh right now on TV, talking to my buddies that are in it, talking to you, you know, when you have those split second decisions that need to be made for your safety or the public safety, and you have to stop and question whether or not your agency's gonna be behind you or they're gonna hang you out to dry. Yeah. I mean, the weight that that has to carry. And what if you do the hesitation? What if how does that ripple out? How does that carry through? Yeah, you've got a good team. Yeah, you've got people counting on you. So you end up, I mean, just from uh you know, knowing some of my career guys, what they've seen, what they've been through, I mean, there's a group that they just kind of give up. They're like, I'm what's my purpose? What's my hope? What am I doing here?

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Am I am I a good cop anymore?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Right, right. And and it's that day-to-day battle, that day-to-day weight, you know, and that degradation of why you entered in the first place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

And that's why you see retention failing, uh, officers retiring early.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Uh recruitment is on a downward, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Scary, scary stuff. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit, uh, you know, uh, to be honest with you, I was fairly familiar with organizational or agency betrayal. Uh that was a topic that I understood to some degree. Um, you know, but the moral injury component of it was something that I was a little bit less well, honestly, I had never heard that term. Um, it makes sense to me, but I hadn't heard that term. And so you've kind of hit on it a little bit, but those seem to be the two focal points right now of what you're doing. Um, and if you can just kind of talk about kind of how your approach, you went through all this, you recognized, hey, we got a problem here. Right. I'm dealing, I'm living this. I think your wife kind of gave you the reality slap that you needed that, hey, we've got an issue here and we got to deal with this. Um, and then you went through your uh, I guess, counseling with that, right? Looking at getting out of the agency, retiring out, kind of what happened after that point.

SPEAKER_04 16:06

Yeah, well, you know, so my moral injury, you know, I had a I went to a conference here recently in New Orleans and I had a clinician reach out to me wanting to know what moral injury was. She had heard about it, but she called it spiritual injury and could not really find a whole lot about it. It's something that is really between 2022 and 2023 has really come around. And the way I I understand it is organization betrayal and moral injury really are siblings. They're they're brother and sister or brother and brother. They go together hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Um, for me, you know, I say I was heartbroken that day after the shooting because the way my agency act acted toward me. I realize now it's moral injury. Um when we walk through that town, we had to go back and have our interviews. FBI, ATF, state police is there. We go to a high school and I look around the room, and as task force officers, we're all from different agencies, brought to the, you know, sworn in under the marshals to go out and do what we do, find these targets, find these needles. Right. And uh when I walked into that room, I saw everyone's chief, everybody had drove there three or four hours to be with their people, and I was alone. And you know, and not even that, when I went back to my agency, quiet ride home, nobody's called me. This is the other part of that. I when I went back to my agency, we had called for extra, we needed more rounds that day. And my team on my the organizational side, not the not the federal side, had said, hey, they're calling for extra rounds, we're gonna go take them some rounds. Now, could they have got to us? No. The perimeter was so big, you could not have gotten me rounds. But they were told to stand down or they had faced reprimands for leaving the office because the organization did not want them involved. Right. For me, it would have been, hey, you couldn't get those rounds to me, but had I walked out and had a peer there to support me, to say the agency sent someone to you and to stand by me because I've got to now go through these interviews. I've got to go back right now and give an interview of what happened over the last four hours. That's what started changing my focus, and that's when I realized I had a moral injury. Right. I had an organizational betrayal. Um, and so when I went to this conference conference and really started learning on that, I I took the ball and started running with it.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah. And so then they um the agency reached out to you and said, Hey, Jason, I know you're looking at retirement, but we need, we're we're wanting, we've recognized this is an issue.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Yeah, and and I think what happened was is a lot of agencies around the the nation now have brought in retired officers, realizing, but as civilians and part-time realizing that all that knowledge is leaving early. You know, I I'm taking an early retirement. Um but you know, in that brokenness, my chief reached out to me and put me into a great program, which was a physical therapy program for first responders only. So when I was losing purpose, when you're facing these diagnoses, he was giving me purpose back.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Um, I then found out later he'd wrote me up for a congressional badge of bravery. So that turns around and you're like, man, I'm not, you know, when it was so silent for my organization for year, you know, for this year, for the six, seven months, they're investing me again. Right. Uh a couple months ago, they asked me to come back and do a peer support class. And I thought, you know, what's really you know, you guys know I'm leaving in October. What's going on? And then they send me to New Orleans. Um, but they approached me and say, you know, Jason, we want we need to bring back our guys with that experience. Um, it's not a time to suppress these problems anymore. We want you to come back and invest part-time. Right. And these guys who are involved in shootings. And and what I realized going to these these things was it's not these conferences. You understand, for these officers and agents, it's financial issues at home. You have female officers on the street that have miscarriages. People go through divorces financial, they lose loved ones. It is deeper than them just having to take a life on the street.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

If they ever have to in their career. You know, there's so much going on there that I don't think the general public realizes.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Right. You know, and that's one thing uh that I I agree. You know, the general public doesn't realize and in some pl some ways doesn't have the capacity. You know, that's the other thing. To realize that a law enforcement officer is carrying all the weight that we do as average citizen. Right. Family, marriage, finance, everything else that we battle, plus what they're experiencing in dealing with their job that is so far beyond what we can understand working in an office, working, you know, in a controlled environment. Um and the potential, while not everybody experiences the trauma, there's always that potential. And with that potential, there is a level of stress you know every day you walk out and you you suit up and you hop in your car and you roll out, you know there is always that potential at an elevated level than what anyone else is going to experience in their day-to-day operations. So that in itself just carries an extra, extra weight. Um, you know, and I'm ex extraordinarily impressed with with the men and women who continue to do this, especially in the environment that we've got now. Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

And we have and you know, it's a bad rep. We we've had those bad apples, but you cannot show me an organization, not even take the police out of it, fire department, and man corporations that do not deal with with betrayal.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah. Well this is a good uh I I like the way we're we're heading right now because you know one of the things that I've gotten to see, you know, we're both about the same age. Yes. We've gotten to kind of see a shift. You know, from when I was a kid, you know, you wanted to be a fireman, you wanted to be a policeman, it was celebrated. Right. You know, doctor, teacher, all of those things. But law enforcement had a special level of respect and fear as well. I think respect and fear roll right hand to hand. And it was something that people had pride in. They wanted to be that I know we've had some societal and cultural uh changes that have gone on over the past 30 years. Right. Um and just wanted from your opinion kind of what have you seen from the time that you started in to where we're at now you know both from a cultural points you know that that we've seen some major shifts occur uh to just kind of an overall um uh perception.

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Right. Well you know when you think about back in 2000 when I applied there was probably a thousand others that plied with me. Like you talked about there was that respect that people wanted to do that job. You had post-911. I remember strangers coming up they want to buy you dinner. They want to buy you lunch and and you we weren't even there physically involved in that but just because you were law enforcement just because you were a first responder they wanted to show their gratitude for it. And then in 2014 we have the Ferguson hands up and you start to see that decline and the public's perception of law enforcement and and granted there's bad apples in every group there's not you move on to George Floyd I I'm an officer. I did not agree with that at all. I I I don't I don't agree with that. That's against when we talk about morals you know but what you see in society start looking at is is that decline was there.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

And so then when you look at recruitment over the last few years where you're not recruiting you know you don't have a thousand applicants you got 300.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

And you're running academies of nine to 10 because that's the best you can bid you know get off that and and they're having to raise the age or they had to raise the age requirements to like six we had people that were 60 and 70 applying. Wow. When it used to be 37 years old was your top out you know so now we're finally getting recruitment back that that's going back down. So we're seeing a little shift there.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Do you think that um you know that that the recruitment the fact that we're not able to fill the ranks or y'all aren't able to fill the ranks is why you're seeing the administration kind of waking up to what is the problem here? Yeah. You know, because now it's it's getting serious. Now it's their ability to run a department.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

You know and they're being held accountable to some level where they've been able to drift around for the past 15 years, you know, because we've had enough people to kind of tie it together and now it's hitting a critical state. I mean do you see that as being the the big push that they're they're having to dig in and and be realistic about what are our problems because we hadn't seen it up until this point, at least from a you know a civilian's perspective.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Right. Well and you know you look at le leadership that for leadership to change it l it's going to take that individual to change. It's going to have to are you going to be political? Are you going to back your officers? Are you going to have fairness across the board? You know are you going to you know I've seen instances where there are so many closed doors investigations when it's involving an officer and the young officers these days they want that open door communication. They can accept the punishment or they can say accept the criticism. It's the silence that burns them out. Right. And you had the leadership like from my from my age for my group and before me that's still in place that you suppress it. Yeah we don't want to hear it. We don't want to talk about it. You were involved in the shooting we're going to go ahead and release it to the news but we're not going to tell you we're about to do it and how does that officer feel on the sitting at the couch at home right now?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Well you you kind of brought up you know there are bad apples. Yeah you know and uh we have that in every field. I mean we're people you know people are diverse mix there's good bad and in the middle um but this perception of bad apples of bad cops you know it seems like the media picks and chooses to drive this you know I mean where where do you where do you see this? I mean it it's not every cop's not bad you know it it it seems like they're persecuted as if I rode the media shirt tail then the Dr.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Kavorkians I'd protest every hospital right I'd have to assume every doctor's bad he's assisting people in suicide. If I looked at the teachers who had affairs with their students in school but I'm still sending my kid to that school there's no protest there. There's bad apples there. We still and and for some kids that's their meal a day. Right. You know I'm saying that's their food a day. So when you think about that what what are you really protesting? You know you're you're protesting an individual but you're blaming a whole culture. Exactly a whole community of officers of law enforcement out of that out of one bad apple and you've tell me you've never experienced that one bad apple in society outside of law enforcement.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

I find it hard to believe.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yeah there you know and that that's the danger that I see in this obviously when we have issues you know we need to address them.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

You get a bad apple yeah take a look at that bad apple yeah see is it just that individual or is there a systemic issue that led to that. Right. It's okay to analyze but to you know punish in the public's eye you know an entire organization because of one individual's actions is not fair. And that kind of brings it up it's not reality. And one of my biggest fears in this is it is part of the there's an engineering behind this of decay of the uh of the agencies um so that you know they are less effective right uh so that they are more controlled. Um you know we see it in social engineering you know why not have it in in the agencies that we are so dependent on as a society for our safety so you know one of those things that that kind of comes up is you know I look at leadership. Leadership is actually where it all starts to me. Exactly uh whether it's yourself in your home in your business or in your agency what I've seen on a corporate level and I've observed as well in military and and law enforcement is you know that not all of our leaders need to be leaders. Need to be leaders they haven't earned it um and when you come from that point you are you have a net you know uh issues you know you are not built for that position so you become protective about the position. Instead of bringing people up that have that leadership quality that are there for the right reasons you suppress those people and you surround yourself with more inept people that don't expose you for your failures. That's something that I've seen in corporate structures that's one thing when it's a a business but when we're talking about an agency that we as a public are depending on that is terrifying. And especially when we look at the effects that it has with this agency betrayal with this moral injury how that kind of trickles down the people the few that you get through that actually come in like I'm sure you're saying you come in with some energy you come in where you're like hey I can make a difference I want to see this I want to be the best that I can be and then you just get beat hammered and beat and beat and eventually 10 15 years in you're like man yeah those those leaders may have looked good those bars stars and stripes may have looked good uh when you're taking your written and oral exam right but what experience do you have to be a leader?

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Right and you know and then you go back to that betrayal. These officers are worried about their decisions on the street so they're not going out and policing like they should. They're taking calls but they're worried about what's the backlash. Are they supportive you hired me to be a professional you put you you put me through 26 weeks of training to be a professional I've got 10 years on you know a lot of these guards but you're not letting them be competent in their decisions.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

And you're coming in and backdooring them and that's where they lose their value.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yep and that's where they're like I I can't risk this anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

And so and you know some of them look at other agencies some of them look at retirement and you think you know is a grass greener on those side no but is it a little greener than what it is on our side do they invest in their people different? Does that do they have wellness plans set up different? Are they relatable? Because if I'm going to go sit down with a peer you know that's been a referral from a supervisor hey we've got a problem with this guy we don't know what it is it's my job as a peer to get to the bottom of it. And the great thing is we have state law now that covers that peer so unless they've done something criminally they're homicidal or suicidal what we talk about stays between him and I that's good. Yeah yeah that's that's important. Yeah it's very important.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

You know because um you know that trust you know that relationship and that trust that it's gonna stay stay in because you know we're still in that I hope it's a transition point. I hope we're gonna continue to advance in the mental health component of it. But that's carried such a stigma for the years. I mean I'm involved with Coast Guard carry you know uh some uh mental health medical you know background for that as well there's things that you're just told you don't go to the doctor for you don't talk about you keep it off your record and uh you know because who knows what's going to happen now.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

It may be okay right now but what happens down the road so that well and that perception like I said when I was teaching this class last year and to come out you know the first 30 minutes is hey here's what happened at the Marshall Service. The last 30 minutes is here's me having PTSD right and trying to get people to recognize and you know it's embarrassing at first it was until the end of the year until I started getting the feedback but to stand up and say man I had an outburst on my son I'm blowing up at home my wife thank goodness thank God wrangled me in and said your family is what's important. I I don't know what's going on but you're gonna fit you're gonna fix it. You chose this career it chose you you are good at it you're not going out like this. You have a year and a half left you're gonna get yourself right but when I run into these young officers on the street now it's not just my career they looked at because they always thought man Jason we always the action and the videos and the things you showed us they were like man I realized my family's important oh yeah my faith is important what you told me the struggles I need to get that off my chest right I you know so I'm I may tell my family the Disneyland version but I need a peer that wasn't in that shooting with me or wasn't in that critical incident with me that can sit down that relates to me that I can just be straight up and honest yep yeah you can lean on them.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yeah lean on them well we've talked kind of about some of the bad apples some of the challenges there the perceptions let's talk about the good part about law enforcement there's still a lot of good you know it is one of the uh fields that I always admired you know and as I became a a father as well you know just a and a protective father just having grown up kind of a little on the rougher side of the tracks you know I knew what was out there and I knew what I was trying to protect my family from and also prepare them for the reality of the world that that is out there.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

But as a law enforcement officer you are putting yourself out there every day you are that's the ultimate you know sacrificial job that I can see in wanting to not only protect the people you care about by being that frontline person you know but also having the opportunity as an individual to make society better safer better change policies I mean you're out there in it it's as real as it gets you know for me it was faith it was you know finding God and that that was here recently for me um and I found myself in the community um in a different manner I found myself being more relatable wanting to have a com conversation because you know you think an officer at the end of the day he's been to 20 calls he's pinned to 20 fights 20 disturbances doing that but I've been able to and that's what I want people to see there if you're really interested in law enforcement it is such a great opportunity and it's a true blessing to really get out when you care about your community when you're working those same districts to get out and have that contact and you and we're seeing right now you're seeing people come up and shake your hand and thank you again. Yeah we have the protesters here and there right but even I've had to arrest a couple of them and you get them aside in jail you're like nice hey thank you for treating me good.

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Thank you you know and you're like what were you yelling at me for that why just spit in my face you know but I got a lot of followers out there right yeah I think it is are are you are you paid are you just aggravate were were you aggravated at something else and you just want to take it out on me.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Yeah but it's still that opportunity for good officers um good leadership to step in and make a difference in that community stop and take a picture with a kid yeah you know you're a canine officer if you got a good dog you know take a moment show just have that positive interaction with the community yes you know and I love taking uh prejudices and uh prejudgments yeah um and turn them on their ear you know when you're able to take someone they think they know you they think they know what you stand for they think they've got you all figured out and they're ready to attack you and you bring a humanity that they don't that throws them off then they listen. Oh yeah then you get a little respect then you have that open door you know and I imagine you see that with policing as well you know I've had you know it's a shame I when you're working with parents and on the fugitive side you're looking for their child who's wanted for maybe murder okay and and this is a real story I have this woman she gives me she texts me every year I arrested her son for murder she said you talk to me like a human being you never disrespected me and I hope you're a family she sends her blessings everywhere even though I arrested her son. The thing I told her in the conversation was is that I'm working for a family who's a victim that they lost her child. But you're you're a victim as well because you have to take a chance that if your son is convicted or your daughter's convicted they're gonna spend the next 40 to 30 years in jail and you've lost your child. That's not what you wanted for your child. Right. So and I think when you look at humanity like that these parents aren't all bad that's the last thing they wanted was their son or daughter convicted of a crime like that specifically and to have to you you've you suffered a loss too and I think when you can be open with people like that and understand that it's a loss on both sides. Both same someone lost a life and you're losing your child you didn't want it. Yeah you know and when you reach people like that I think that's where they that's where those bad apples start to kind of diminish a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Right right well that's an amazing point of view that I think gets lost completely. There's victims on both sides. And you know in order to have that perspective you know you've kind of you've got to be pretty resilient in yourself. Right. And I know with my journey through life and what I've been through and my recent engagement with faith you know how that has really played in you've hit on it a little bit earlier you know but how faith becomes a component in that resiliency, in that strength, in that perception, you know, that you can get through being a stronger individual kind of like this looking at both sides where it's not quite as obvious or society doesn't direct us that way. Having that benevolence and that understanding that goes beyond just your ABCs of your job you know so I know you've had a little faith journey as well where do you see that aligning both through you know we can only carry so much our family can only carry so much so you're left at night open-eyed in bed wrestling you know how is this played in into uh your ability to cope work through these things you know where do you see it aligning?

SPEAKER_04 40:39

You know everybody I I I believe everybody's got faith in something and my faith is in Jesus Christ. And it really I had to turn to him 100% because you can go through so much counseling you can listen to your family so much but you you've got to have faith in something else something bigger than you. Yeah and for me that's what it was. And in that I think the greatest gift that was given to me was humility and to go out and do my job with humility like you said look at both sides you're both victims. Last thing I want to do is have my son arrested for committing a crime but I'm not going to keep him from you either. If you think he's a suspect I've got to have that grace to bring him in because he deserves his punishment. I tell people a lot of time too and it's you don't realize until you really bring God into the conversation is when people say well the police lie to us all the time they may but I have a God that I'm not gonna stand in judgment for because I lied to you today. I'm telling you what needs to happen let's make this happen safely and let let the system hopefully work on our side work on the victim side work on your side. Right. You know and I think when you open up to people like that and they see a true heart in your policing in your job you can really make a difference. That's that but it again when you talk about leadership and you talk about individuals right you have to be willing to change yourself.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Oh yeah I think that's where it all starts you know uh you know we can't take care of other people till we take care of ourselves and that sounds selfish and in a way it is to some degree but in the big picture it's how it has to be if your home life's a wreck otherwise you're a burden to to everyone else I am taking my home life it's if it's a wreck I'm showing up with it at work. Right. Yeah it's inescapable well I know with mine I thought I was pretty pretty well put together I'd been through some adversity I'd carried a lot of weight and I had faith in a God it was my God it was my construct I was comfortable with it but until I accepted true faith faith in Jesus Christ faith in the supernatural I didn't realize the burden that I was carrying emotionally physically everything and I look back at how much more resilient I could have been through these difficult times how much I leaned on my family and my friends and some of it was well meaning some of it was I wasn't able to cope because I didn't have that peace in my life and you know the nights that you're up those those experiences those memories that come back that you're wrestling with being able to hand that over accepting that humility that you can't solve everything.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

There are things that are beyond our human capacity and that's where faith comes into play knowing there's a plan knowing there's a purpose knowing that you don't have to have the answers for everything. Right. Knowing that those answers will come if you submit and you give it up and you close your eyes and you put yourself at peace the next day will come and you'll have a purpose. You know that's where it aligned for me. And it It's tough. It's not like it happened magically, and it's not a challenge to get into that understanding that mindset. But I just know how much difference it made, other than having a child for the first time, it was the biggest life-changing event for me was finally truly accepting Jesus Christ in my life. And um, and that's part of the reason why we're here today talking.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Well, and that's why I think too, if you you you think about it, when you look back through the tribulations in your life, God had purpose for you. And look what you're doing now. You're giving back to the community. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so we go through things in our life without understanding God's got a plan and he's gonna get glory for it. Right. One way when you break down and finally submit, there's a reason.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Oh, there is. And uh, you know, the the strength through humility, yeah, that is lost. Humility is something that carried, you know, a connotation in my world. Right. Humility was weakness in a way. Yeah. You know, you you you were seen as kind of soft, not at all. Yeah. It is confidence.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

And it is the one of the most essential uh components to being a leader. It's relatable, right? It's understanding, it's that mutual respect that you can give when you're a humble person. That doesn't mean you roll over.

SPEAKER_04 45:22

Yeah, no, you're not that at all.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

No, that means you approach things through a balanced lens. That's right. And, you know, that's something that uh, you know, again, challenge daily. Yeah. Hey, what test do test?

SPEAKER_04 45:38

You cannot escape it, but through grace.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah, exactly. You cannot fully appreciate it without that faith component. Exactly. Um the um because that's what it is. When you submit, I didn't realize how much ego I was still carrying until I submitted, you know, and and that that is what that is. Uh you have to be humble. You have to accept you you are not the shit. Yeah, well, you know, you don't like we talk about that day.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

You know, I I joke with people all the time. God had to get my attention. Not only am I going to break your shoulder, I'm gonna make you sit down for a minute because he had a different direction.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

A year and a half ago, I wouldn't have wanted to do your show. A year and a half ago, I wouldn't have wanted been in wellness. You know, I was lost in my own hell.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 46:25

And but he had a reason.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Right. It's a it is amazing to hear you say that because some of us guys are a little hard-headed. Yeah. And God has to lean on us a little harder.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

He definitely leaned on me before I finally. And I think that you know, you you look at especially, you know, you talk to the the guys that have been uh on the inside for a while, and you know, a lot of them find find Jesus. You and you know, you you kind of just I always kind of threw that. I'm like, yeah, you're just into yourself, you know, you're looking for an easy way out. It's you're gonna get back on the outside and all that's gonna go away. But it is God's way of touching us. It's a guy, it's God's way of forcing us to recognize. He can't, well, I say force, he leads you strongly. Right.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

You're still you can still resist.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Um but uh and in doing so, I just really see it as a definition of the fact that he has a purpose for us. Yeah. And he's pushing us that way. You still have to take it, you still have to run with it, but he he there is a reason for this. I wasn't looking for it.

SPEAKER_05 47:44

Right. Right at all. Yeah, I didn't want it. But he opens doors.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yeah.

unknown 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

But and sometimes we don't see that, like I said, yeah. It took me a year and a half, almost two years, to realize, you know, he had another had another way out.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Yeah. But um, you know, and talking about the faith component, do you see that? Or is that still kind of taboo in in this whole wellness movement? Is is it, you know, because I know how strong I feel about it. I can see how strong and how much difference it made for you. Or is this being discussed?

SPEAKER_04 48:19

It is being discussed. When I went to the peer support class, did a four 40-hour class there. You have to give up and talk about something that truly affected your life. Mom was that shooting, how it changed direction. I assume everybody in the room, they may be atheists. I just take them up, whatever, but I'm not going to be afraid to boast about my God.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

You know what I'm saying? And to say, my team is alive because I had three guys come up with bullet holes in their shirts, burn marks on their arms. God saved us that day.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

So, in that, yeah, you do hear people say, um, it was amazing to sit down with, you know, these 20 other people and hear them say, you know, when I get in the shower, that's my prayer time.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:01

I'm alone from my kids, I'm away from my kids. You know, prayer time doesn't have to be just on your knees in your prayer closet. If you need a break, go take a break and and and get it in there. You know, but you are hearing it more. I think people are finding, we're seeing a uh people turn back to God. Because they're they're not finding anywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that that is, you know, and that's a great point. Hadn't really explored this, but all of the chaos in society right now that we have, that is one anchor that people are starting to see. Yeah. And, you know, in the past, it seems like society just kind of flowed along. Life was I know each generation says, you know, oh, the good old days, oh, the good old days, oh, the good old days. Well, we had some good old days. You know, that's just you we we look at it. And so it didn't force people in mass to these critical components of dealing with the day-to-day stresses. And I think that people are seeing at least they're opening the opportunity for faith in Christ in their life. We're leading by example. It's gonna take guys like us, you know, that you might not expect to have that level of faith because I saw it as a weakness again. Right. You know, uh, if somebody came to me and they started talking about Jesus and miracles and all this, I was like, Yeah, okay, well, you know, I'm glad you believe that. But I'm dealing with reality here, man. Until you live it. Yeah. You know, but uh now, you know, as I've gone through my journey and talking to more people, I'm like, okay, this is real. Yeah, this is a foundational part of how you can survive. Yeah. How you can make it how you not only survive, but how you thrive and how you lead.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

Right. You know, so yeah, and for me, you know, like I said, sitting down and having that, you know, I I was saved, but for God to sit, like I say, go through all the motions, not only did I realize, and I think people take it for granted, he's God. It's a privilege to for to pray to him, and much less for him to even hear us.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

And yet he wants it.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

He wants a family to that. And so in my birds, and I did it as well, like anybody else would. Why, God? Why'd you do with me? But I guarantee I'll never ask that question again. Right. How dare I question him after the doors he's opened for me when I was, like I said, living in my hell.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 51:37

You know, he was still there.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Very powerful. And you know, it's uh I I truly my heart breaks for the people that haven't experienced it yet. Yeah. Um, or are resistant to it. All I tell them is, I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it. No, no, open up, just give it a chance.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

But I'm not gonna shy away from it either.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

No, not going to, because it's gonna take people standing up in leadership positions and and telling them, hey, this is what gets me through the day. Yeah. This is how I am able to deal with this. Yep. And uh especially in in you know, y'all's line of work and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 52:15

These first responders across the board for every one of them.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Right.

SPEAKER_04 52:18

You know.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

Cool stuff. Cool stuff. Well, right along with faith comes family. Yeah. You know, we've you've hit on, you know, the effects that that families go through. I mean, they're the I wouldn't say unwilling participants. Right. They know kind of what they're getting into, but that balance that you you you're you are bringing home a certain amount, you're giving up and sacrificing a certain amount. Right. You have to find how do you disengage at the door and re-engage when you walk through it. That's right. What do you bring home? What burdens can your family handle and what do you keep from them? Right. You know, that's gotta be a torturous, delicate thing.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Yeah, well, you know, and my son, he's a he's a sergeant in the military, and you know, I remember the conversation he had with me is dad, that's one fight you didn't come home with, not even a Disneyland version. You know, and because I walked in, like I said, you you you go to your door, you're not gonna walk in your house with muddy boots on, but my mind was muddy. Yeah, I was tactically trained, and but my mind took a dump on me. You know, and it's important for families to see things up front. That's what they don't want to do. Well, my husband's a cop, he can handle this, they're in law enforcement, he's seen worse than this. How dare I confront him? And it could be the simplest thing is coming home and your spouse sitting on the couch and having that 15 minutes of say, I need to sit on for 15 minutes and have a drink. But that 15 minutes turns to 30 minutes, turns to 45 minutes, and and that one drink becomes six and seven every day. You should have intervened when you saw, you know, but families need that support. I I am a big my wife had to go through counseling in that she didn't go through someone who was had first responder experience. So the woman in her eyes that she was talking to was like, I can't believe that you're they're letting your husband back on the streets. I can't believe that PTSD wasn't gunfire. It wasn't that it was totally, it can be so many things to so many people.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 54:27

It can it can be your childhood. But my wife finally understood and said, you wouldn't want nobody else on the street with you but him. And I don't think we need to talk anymore.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Right.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Because she knew she was listening to other, she was getting the information herself.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

And she had lived it with you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

And I was getting dialed in through wellness, coming home going, hey, I made a mistake. And you, God put it on her heart. I'm not, I can't get he may not be getting through right now, even though he was, but I remember getting on the couch that day, broken, and she said, You're gonna fix your crap.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

People look at you as a hero in your community, they they see you as this guy who's done these amazing things. You will not leave that career broken like you are right now.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Right. You're gonna. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:13

And so family is so important to stand up and but ease into those battles. Just remember when they're coming home and you see blood on their clothes, their uniforms torn, they've been in a fight, they've been in a scuffle, or even worse, they've had to take a life that nobody I there's not one person I can think that woke up in the morning and thought, I'm gonna kill somebody today. Not one officer. It just doesn't happen. It's the last thing you ever want to do. You talk about a burden. Yeah. And so it's important to families. I would tell the law enforcement out there, educate your spouses. Put them into a podcast like this, put them into other first responders that they can listen to and understand and give them the courage to say, hey, when you start seeing me fail, let me know. Right. And then that that responder have that open heart of, that's what I did. I needed to see it.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah, and it has to be that mutual understanding. You know, we can't expect, I mean, an average couple can't even agree on where to go eat you know for dinner. You know, so you know, we can't expect our spouses, our children to understand everything.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

And to do that, you're creating a dynamic that is impossible to overcome. You know, there has to be a person within the person, you have to understand what the capacities are.

SPEAKER_03 56:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

You know, what do you talk to your buddies about? You know, what do you talk to your family about? But I've always tried, I haven't always done it successfully, but I've tried to have my home as my safe zone. That's my that's my you know, refuge. Yeah. That's where we put the maximum protection in emotionally and physically, every everything. Exactly. Um, because if you don't have that in life, I mean faith is hugely important, but that's you and God. Yeah. This is more. This is where it starts really adding up. You've got lives that you are nurturing in some cases, and you have a chance to change good and bad. And that's where that extra responsibility comes on, you know. And man, the the dynamic of having to work through your problems and their problems and everybody's problems. But, you know, it's well, and what you're touching on there is fathers need to be fathers.

SPEAKER_04 57:44

Yes. It's time for dads to stand back up and take their position, whether you're in the relationship or not with the mom, it's time to step back into the the position that you signed up. Yeah, those kids need to. Yeah, you can change that child's life by being a dad. Or being a bad thing. Or worse. Responder or not.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Right. And that's you know, it it is that the fact that when you take that action of having a child, you have that responsibility of rearing that child. And financial is one of it, but I know how important it was to me to have men in my life, especially my father, to look for that direction and how to operate, how to handle a situation, how not to handle a situation. What it meant to be that person. And guess what? It took sacrifice for those men to raise me.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

It wasn't all about what they wanted when they wanted it, and I was a byproduct of it. There were times where they had to sacrifice to make sure I was being led in the right direction. And that's what we're losing right now. Everything is about the individual. Yep. It's a selfishness, a self-absorbed importance. And, you know, we see it, it's it's pervasive throughout. If we can't teach this next generation what we are as men and as women, where are we going? Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

You know, because that's what's so important is when you and so when we talk about first responders, to go out in your community, you may be the most enrichment that young person had. Exactly. Invest in them a minute. I've done it over and over. Made connections with great families. Not I'm not there to raise your kid, I'm not there to make him go to school, but let me enrich, put some enrichment in them.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Well, it just takes that open door. Yeah. You know, and I I talked to lots of guys from different backgrounds. One thing, one commonality that I've seen is every successful person that I know, especially the self-made guys, had one person in their life, at least one, right, that was that grounding, that guiding light, that person that took the extra initiative with them at a pivotal point in their life, in their development, that they said, that's what I need to shoot for. It's my direction. Yep. Yeah. And so law enforcement, perfect opportunity. You're dealing with the kids that are most susceptible to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

Yeah. And I grew up fatherless, you know, and I knew when I was 18 I need to go in the military. I need discipline. And, you know, I wish more kids would go. Start your start your life there. You will find a group of people that, I mean, when your buddy's willing to die for you, that's a big thing. That's powerful.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:47

It's powerful.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:48

Very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:49

Very powerful. Well, you know, we've uh we're we've kind of hit around it a little bit on the big picture. Okay, so you know, we've talked about some of the challenges, both socially and within the agencies with our law enforcement. We've talked about the diminishing of the recruits. We've talked about some of the failures in the leadership. Um, we've talked about how society's view has kind of been contaminated against law enforcement. How does this play out for us as a society now? I mean, what direction are we heading? And, you know, it um and in that, you know, how how do we fix it? Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:38

I I think if I could tell the generation today who's even thinking about it, do it. Take a chance and do it. Look at your morals and do they align with the laws that you know? You know, and step out on that faith. And we need good officers. We need good police officers. I've seen guys leave the agency and go be bankers and come back two years later and go, man, thank you for it. And you're like, you're not in it for the money. Right. No. You're not in it for the money. You're in it because you really want to make a difference. And I wish more young people are at the age that they would say, you know what, I can, I, it's what I've wanted to do. I I I did it when I was young. I want to be a police officer growing up, I want to be a fireman, uh, whatever. Take the chance and step into that position and take your morals with you and understand that people like me, there's tons of us out there, the nation's crawling with us. We we want to help you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

I I want you to come into this profession and retire like I am, healthy, happy, physically, good. You know what I'm saying? I let us help you and guide you in that direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Well, I think that that's, you know, as far as our future, you know, it it's gonna take the experienced people to come in and guide. We uh I see us as having a big gap. We had a big gap. Yeah. And it's time to take that back. And we kind of hit a critical point right now that I think is gonna force those hands. Uh, it's a reality that can't continue to be kicked down the road. It's a truth that is right there in your face. Yeah. And uh it is such a critical component to a functional society. You've got to have law enforcement. Right. You know, it's not going to win. Just, you know, as street, smart, savvy, whatever you want to call it as as I feel like I am. We were at the restaurant the other day, or actually it was yesterday. Um, had our first fight, you know, in the parking lot, and they came grabbed me out of the kitchen. I'm running out there, um, expecting it for to be two guys throwing down. It was women fighting. But the first thing that I did when before I walked through that front door, as I told him, I was like, call law enforcement right now. We have to have that and know that the people that are gonna show up to take care of those situations are competent and confident and fair and smart, and the direction we're heading right now with recruitment creates desperation.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

You know, what kind of society are we gonna be if we cannot have a functional law enforcement? You know, that's terrifying for me.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:27

Yeah, we need to go back to having the cream of the crop. Yeah, you know, and that starts at the at your leaders down to your basic patrolman and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

And have a supportive ladder up. Yes, bring those people that want it, encourage that, don't diminish it. Yeah, yeah. You know, direct them, find them, fine-tune them, sharpen them, yeah, you know, and give them that projection. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:54

You see a lot of them, their careers, they don't continue their training. They don't continue their education. That some of them love just to be there doing that. And I I in the office I work in, I'm like, hey, did you see there's advanced rifle training? You need to go. And I pushed them. You're gonna be better. When that active school shooter happens, this is gonna pay off. Yeah. Go to advanced pistol, you know, get educate yourself. It's it's free. Your agency's paying for it. Take advantage of it. You can sit sit on the sideline, all right, step up and be more.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:24

You know, and that's what we need. Like I said, it's investment.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:28

And that's what it is, you know, and it's not a quick fix. No. It's taken a long time for us to get to this point, and it's gonna take a while to get back, but it's gotta start with the individual knowing they're supported. That's right. They've gotta know they're protected, they've gotta have defined direction that is morally aligned with who they are. That's right. And we have to start letting our younger generations understand. how they can benefit, how rewarding this can be. This isn't about, you know, being a punching bag.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

This isn't about being thrown up on TV and and prosecuted. You know, there is a lot of good that comes out of this. And, you know, we have to have to start rebuilding that. The great rewards out of it. Yeah. So, you know, it uh the oh we could go on and on and on about this today. But um I guess in conclusion, I definitely want to love to have you back on some other because like I said we've got a lot of yeah information we could cover. But you know, talking about yourself again. Now I know we've started off there and kind of worked our way around but you know what's the legacy? What's your legacy?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:55

You know I want to leave so that like I said they've invited me to come back and bring my experience part-time. So I've considered that I volunteered a local fire department. I feel like community is important. And you know through that it's been a different lens as well. But what I want to leave behind with my guys as I meet with my peers um you know is just to look and say you know Jason did a great job. If they just remember me being a good cop and that he was open and honest with us when he left he showed he he poured his heart out he showed us his mind we thought he was this big badass dude and yet he was broken. Yeah and we can be broken too and come out of it and still leave you know that that's a legacy I want to leave. You may be broken but you can be put back together. Yeah. It's temporary. You know and that's what I want to leave on the table with these guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

You can be strong and you can be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:46

Yeah exactly and that's okay. And humility will will like you said that man what a great gift. Yes. You know and if you would approach every day you know that the the peer I'm working with right now I need you to get off that parking lot have faith in yourself get back to work. Yeah you know I I know you've seen some critical incidences but get your faith back. Yeah you're a good cop you know don't who cares about the news who get you're gonna see it it's not going away you know be better.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

And that's when you you hit on one of the you've got to take moments in your day and it's not always predictable. You're not going down on your knees right you're clearing your head exactly you're talking to God and you're moving forward you know you've got to take those moments when they're available. That's right. But I see you know that's one of the things I try to do in my day. You know it gives you that reset it gives you that confidence you know and it is uh extremely and extraordinarily important to kind of get your head right yeah um and I'd love to see more old guards that are retired with that experience they took that knowledge with them and left nothing on the table.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:57

Look at your a be be a volunteer to come back. Hey if you didn't even if you offered me a wellness light and said hey we can't pay you right now I would do it because I know what broken is what a broken mind and it's temporary.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

And it's therapy for you as well it is you know it's a it's a reciprocal day is a blessing for me to come in and get to share my story with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

That people don't you talk it out. Yes the halt in it end is done. We don't suppress that anymore. Right. I can't suppress sticking my finger in someone's neck trying to save their life when they got a bullet hole in it. You know I've got to get that off my chest. Those A's are done.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

Right. Well it has to be addressed and it has to be protected and everybody's a little different and so it has to be dynamic as well. And uh all of these are building blocks you know to an end goal and I hope that they always say it's like eating an elephant one bite at a time one bite at a time. Yeah that's it you'll eventually get that tail.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:52

Yeah finish I'm gonna be a fat a fat butt after it though well um what this is kind of going a little bit back but it's something that I've been curious of um what is one of the biggest mistakes you see rookies come in with I wish it's investing in their future they come in they're offered these part-time jobs they're making 60 70 bucks an hour you know because these places like Apple they'll pay them double the salary they're not putting money away and you don't realize this career flies by and I wish they would make more investments for their future for their children you know Trump started a great thing with this deal in July that you can you can open an account for your child do things like that invest. He's talked about what that will look like when they're 18 and ready to go to college but have that retirement say I I'm retiring at 53. Right I'm gonna have a good life I invest I made those right decisions those investments those little sacrifices up front a little discipline yeah and be open minded to it that career is not there forever right and and you may not make it forever.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Well I think that that's an important I've got a friend who I grew up with that was in pro ball and you know that is one of those things as well with those guys those rookies coming in making money for the first time in their life it's not just about the psychological things that that they're facing that you you know we've talked about but it's about those old guys that have been there done that seen it play out talking about the financial stuff because this this is what ends up helping you on the back end. Yeah you know preparing financially takes a load off of you down the line you know knowing that at least you've got that to fall back on.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

Yeah I couldn't imagine being 65 67 trying to retire out of a what I've done for right the last 26 years. Yeah I mean broken so many bones you know you're just I can't imagine going that long in and the mental side of that as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

So you got to plan for it and these young guys they see it as long way off. Yeah and I I want that four wheeler right now and I want the big deer stands and you gotta have you got to have the guys like you and like me that have been through it seen how fast that plays and say guy if you trust me listen to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:17

Yeah let's start doing this this is what I did and this is how I because it was invested me a long time ago if if you can't live off your paycheck and you're starting to clear those part-time jobs you're out of control.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:28

Get back in live off what you make and put some back invest in yourself. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

Invest in your family well you know the um in wrapping all this together you know the uh you know you hope you never reach this point and this kind of a this is a a big question that can go multiple directions but a piece of advice for people you know if you hit that that bottom when you feel like you've lost everything. I mean how do you keep going on?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:07

You know I'm reminding the scripture when David's talking about walking through that valley of the shadow of death nobody ever said to quit walking. You got it you know what I'm saying? You keep walking you're gonna hit that bottom and sometimes we need to hit that bottom you know I what I took from my shooting that day is my team of all the warrants we served how how good and tactical we were we're we're vulnerable. You know walk keep walking don't sit down. Yep there there's a light at the end of that tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Right. Yeah I think a lot of people and that's human nature you just want to give up yeah you want to it's easy to quit.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:47

You know and that's a sad thing too and let me throw this to statistic out. You know when people think when you look at suicide amongst officers not to bring this down to the end they're higher right now than they are officers killed in line of duty and that's a sad situation. It is and that's why I want to see agencies come back and really start yeah we can have all the glam but let's really invest in what our guys are seeing and what they're going through.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

And address it in bites. Yes. Don't let it build up to a catastrophic level. You know if it's if that door is open from the get-go and it's encouraged to walk through it as many times as you need to then it becomes cultural then it becomes accepted. It's not the stigma that you've had to overcome or that I've seen my friends overcome um or haven't overcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:37

A lot of them still haven't yeah and they're gonna carry it out I joked with everybody I graduated to now I get to do virtual call-ins with my psychologists instead of showing up face to face. But it was you know it it was a progression. I had to I had a family support me saying you better take that first step.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

And like you said once I did though it became cultural it became normal it became it felt good to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:57

You know and now being involved in wellness they actually encouraged the wellness officers to have a psychologist once a month or a counselor that you go to because you're not only taking on our problems now we've got all these other issues and we don't want to hit burnout.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Right. You know we just gotta take care of our new people and keep them straight and give them the support that they need and the access that they need to everything training mental health it's peer support the old guys like like you that have been through it done it um and you know even down to the financial component of it. You know that give them all of that because man you know knowing that when you step through out of the academy that you walk through that that first day you are going to be taken care of on more levels than one.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Look you have to look strip that strip that officer of his uniform his gun and badge or he or she and realize they're a human being underneath that. And then you'll have a connection with them the rest of their life. Right. See him as a human being first.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:00

And I think you build their confidence in themselves that's going to play out with the public you know it's gonna give them that strength to deal with adverse situations the and whether that be you know just people or their own head or you know and I I truly believe that faith is a is a massive component of that as well. Hopefully we'll keep on this journey and uh and see some improvement. It sounds like they're at least tuning into it now. And uh and that's an encouraging. So well brother I appreciate you just enjoyed it yeah that's been a good one. It's been a good one. Hopefully we're giving some people some information they can bite on research on and um you know uh and some direction in life.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

Yeah don't be afraid to stand up for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

Yeah keep walking. Yes sir thank you Jason yes sir thank you