SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, today we have Tracy Gray. Um, you have quite the story to tell, you know, of a childhood of trauma, embracing that as an adult, moving forward. You know, you're a firefighter, paramedic, father, husband, and you're finding yourself into a leadership position, you know, in in this community. A lot of people know you, look up to you, admire your story and the resiliency that you have um have exhibited uh in the way you live your life, and you're reaching out now uh through your social media platforms and really starting to impact a lot of people even outside of this community. So um honored to have you on this podcast. I think we're gonna cover some pretty real topics today. I'm looking forward to that. I think people need to hear about it, hear your story, how you overcame and how you continue to deal with it, how we all continue to battle through this journey of life and and find our purpose and our direction and and how we can better this world that we live in. So thank you for coming on today.

SPEAKER_06 1:11

I don't know that I'm deserving of that introduction, um, but I really appreciate the time and just reaching out and and wanting to sit down and talk. I'm I'm really looking forward to that opportunity. Well, let's get this start. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So let's talk a little bit about you. Um we have the introduction, but you know, who is Tracy Gray? What's your what some of the highlights of of where you came from and and what you've been through and where you're at now?

SPEAKER_06 1:51

Yeah, so um I I start my story with um, you know, I was born in prison. Uh both of my biological parents uh murdered my older brother when he was a five-month-old. Um, and so I was immediately taken um and placed into foster care. Uh I spent two days in a NICU because of drug addiction uh on my mom's side. I grew up in the foster care system. Both of my parents were convicted. My dad took a plea bargain and he was convicted of second-degree murder. Um, my mom took a plea bargain, and uh she was convicted of endangering the welfare of a minor. And so she only served 18 months, um, which I still will never understand. Uh, I had unsupervised visits with my mom when she was in prison and when she was released from prison. And there was some pretty violent child abuse uh up until the age of six when an incident happened that I finally was adopted out. The family who adopted me was 60 years older than me. They had been foster parents for more than 30 years and had raised over 300 foster children over their time in the system. Um, great family, um, three biological children of their own who were much older than me. They had children that were actually older than me. Um, and overall, I I would say that I had a a good a good childhood um after I was adopted. My dad was a Baptist preacher. Um, we lived on a farm. They raised me just like they raised their children in the 50s. And I struggled really, really bad with um depression, PTSD. Uh, I got into drugs and alcohol as a young teen, and it just spiraled. Uh starting at 14 to 18, I'd been in 14 different facilities for uh rehab or jail. And my final facility was teen challenge. I spent 15 months in teen challenge, and finally, it was during that time period that I decided it's time to, it's time to get this. Because if I don't get it now, I'll never get it. Um, I graduated teen challenge. A month after I graduated, I met my now current wife. Um, and I I every day became a conscious decision just to to push forward. And I ended up attending a welding school, becoming a welder by trade. Uh, my wife and I got married. My father-in-law planted a seed that I needed to go to a new hire seminar at the fire department that I worked for, and I tried to push it off, tried and tried and tried, did everything I could to avoid that. Finally went, and um I decided to change gears and go a different direction. And I fought and got on at the fire department. Uh, there was a lot of physical work that I had to do to get prepared for it. And, you know, God is good. Um, I got on at the fire department in 2018. Our son was born in 2020. Um, Hannah and I became foster parents in 2024. We got our placement, fought for him. We were able to adopt him um in March of 25. And uh I guess that's just a big synopsis of, you know.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

So when uh when did y'all decide to start giving back beyond just uh I understand the the foster component of it, which is very powerful in its own, but you know, when did you feel like you had a story to share?

SPEAKER_06 5:32

Was that encouraged by someone else or was it something you and your wife kind of you know, so uh faith has always been a strong part of my background. Even even if I personally wasn't strong in in my faith, I always had the backbone of Christianity and faith, and I knew that we had power in our testimonies. And so I was arrested my senior year of high school uh for possession of at the time it was K2. I was all also on juvenile drug court, and I tell you that because when I got out of the rehab, I spent like 34 days in jail and 52 days in rehab when I was 17. When I got out, Garland County Casa actually approached me and asked if I would share my testimony and my story of what happened um to the schools in our area. And I thought, well, why in the world would you want to why would you want to talk to me? And um I I agreed and I started sharing then, and I didn't really get much into my childhood stuff a little bit. I tiptoed around it because I was still too scared to share it because I felt really vulnerable. Um, but I would share the experience of addiction and getting right because after that rehab, I I was sober for, you know, I say one of the longest stents of that period of my life, it was like six months. Um, but I felt like I could make a change by sharing my story because I would see other kids in similar situations and and would say, you know, we're we're finding hope or we're seeing that if you can do it, we can do it too. Right. Um, and I guess that's where it started. Um now after becoming staple and having a wife and a family, we started sharing our testimony at church. And that's where it kind of uh grew from. And then when we started sharing on social media, I'll just be honest with you, I had no idea. Right. I I had no clue that number one, that I had a story that people thought was impactful. Uh don't get me wrong, I'm not ignorant. I I know that I have um sort of an outlandish story, um, but I didn't think it'd be that impactful. And that's that's where it grew from. When I when I started seeing people reaching out on our social medias and saying, you know, thank you for speaking on this, thank you for sharing, thank you for normalizing a lot of these things. Hannah and I sat down, my wife and I, and we were like, we we have to do this. We have to continue to share.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Right. Well, I mean, it's a very inspirational story. And but it all comes back to the beginning, you know, and me learning a little bit about what you've been through and having experienced little pieces of and uh of what you've you've gone through, not to the degree uh that you experience, but at least having enough of an understanding of how that carries through life and how it impacts you at various stages, and how it can destroy you or it can strengthen you. You know, let's kind of uh start from that beginning so people out there uh will understand the degree of of what you went through and at whose hands you went through it at. You know, that is something uh, for instance, uh for me, what I've noticed is that the older I get, the more reflective I get. And sometimes that's more trauma that you have to deal with because youth is ignorance. You only know what you know, and it's you know, and but as you become a father or a grandfather or a husband and you look back on that past trauma, that's where it really starts. Like, oh my God. You know, how could they have done this to a child? Yeah, I agree. So um I'd I'd like for you to share just a little bit of of that.

SPEAKER_06 9:46

Yeah. So um after I was placed in foster care, I mentioned that I had unsupervised visits with my mom. Um I never had visits with my dad, but I had to go visit my mom when she was in prison. And the actually the earliest memory that I have of my mom was was the last time I had to visit her in prison. And I think the only reason I remember it so vividly is because the day that um the caseworkers came to pick me up, they were different transporters. They were transporters that I had never met, and there was a man and a woman, and usually it was uh just a one transporter, a woman, her name's Paula. I actually got reunited with her last year. Um, and so I knew that something was different, I knew something was off. Um it was always a fight to get me out of the house. Right. Just because of the things that would happen. I didn't want to see my my biological mom's name is Ashley, and I don't give her the credit of calling her mom, so if I say Ashley, that's who I'm referring to. Um, I never wanted to go see Ashley. So it was literally dragging me out of the house. I remember um I broke trim on the door holding onto the door face, and my adopted parents would say that that was the most gut-wrenching because they couldn't do anything. They were they were instructed. They were forced to instructed. You you don't you don't try to console him, you don't try to hold him. Um, you just we have to take him. It's um we don't have a choice, we're just gonna roll with it. Right. So that day I remember going to the prison, and it was actually the last time I visited Ashley before she was released. Um and I remember when we left, I didn't I didn't want to hug Ashley. And for some reason that made her mad. And of course, although it's unsupervised, we're in a prison. Everything's monitored, there's guards. Um, I didn't want to hug her and it made her mad, and so she spit in my face. Wow. And I vividly remember that. Um, when she was released from prison, I had to go visit her, and actually, um the house that we visited in, the house that she lived in, is five minutes north of where we're sitting right now. Uh she lived with her mother, which was my my granny. And um I I don't know why Ashley was so angry. I don't know why she was um so violent. It's like she was just mad at the world. But I can remember going to visit my mom and granny, and I love to see my granny. Um that was a woman who was very special to me, but it was during those visits. It it started out as just yelling. Um, and I never knew why or what I did wrong, but she would always yell, and it progressed to slapping, you know, slapping me in the face. Um, and it just got worse. It seemed like the more of a reaction that I would have, the bigger her reaction was, and the more violent she would become. Um, as I got a little bit older, toward the end of my stint in foster care, uh, my mom had a boyfriend who um for some reason hated me just as much as she did for whatever reason. And um the abuse got more physical. And um there was a day that Ashley hit me with an extension cord. I I still have the scars on my my upper butt, lower back. Um, you know, because I wanted to spend time with granny and I didn't want to spend time with Ashley. I never wanted anything to do with Ashley, and it was that I guess that lack of a reaction or lack of affection toward her that that fueled it. I don't know. I I all I can do is assume um my granny was very poor, so she had to work a lot, and there used to be a piggly wiggly up up north on the north side of Park Avenue. And my I'm sure you probably remember. I remember driving through there uh where she used to work, and um it was when granny would go to work, is when I was the most afraid, you know, because she was like my blanket.

SPEAKER_04 13:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 13:54

Um, she would take a lot of the brunt of the physical stuff. When Ashley would start on me, she would come in and would be the buffer. And I learned young to stay quiet, you know, because I didn't want Ashley's anger to bleed over to Granny. And if I could just shut up and be tough and just shut up and take it. And you were oh, I was seven years old? I was four or five at that time. Oh, okay. Yeah, five toward the very end of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

You know, and it I understand where you're coming from on trying to protect.

SPEAKER_05 14:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

And at that early an age, you know, when most kids are just living life. They're just being kids, you know, they're learning their ABCs and and and you are faced with trauma and protection and uh having to grasp and understand those dynamics. But to be honest with you, most adults, you know, can't even fully, you know, comprehend and are never really faced with, to be honest with you. Um, I mean, that wow, that's uh that's a lot. That is a lot.

SPEAKER_06 15:11

Yeah, my um, you know, I a lot of people don't understand the way that I describe it, but I call my saving grace the day that got me out of Ashley's reign. The incident that led to Ashley losing her rights was the last day that I I spent with her. Um the abuse, like I said, was physical. Um it turned sexual. Um, her boyfriend, I was molested and raped by her boyfriend and Ashley. Um but the last day that I spent with Ashley, um since I was born in custody, since Ashley was in custody, and I had so many health issues when I was first born. Um and because I was put in the NICU and placed in a foster care, um, I was never circumcised as a baby. That wasn't a priority then. Um I don't I don't know why. I guess they found it disgusting. I don't know why it mattered to them. Um but the last day that I was with Ashley and her boyfriend, they attempted to circumcise me with a razor blade.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

And um I remember um I remember trying to stay quiet. Right. My granny came in and um that was really hard.

SPEAKER_06 16:46

And I think that messed with me mentally more than it did physically.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Right. Well the you know, I can't imagine as a child processing what all is going on, and and you tend to blame yourself as a child because you don't have the experience of the world, yeah, you don't know how things exist outside of where you are. And but what we are ingrained with is that our parents, our grandparents, and the people around us are supposed to protect us, right? You know, and when that doesn't happen, then we start looking at why, yeah, what have I done? Yeah, you know, and you know I just uh I'm envisioning that. I can't imagine uh as a child I'm uh having to endure, like you said, it's not as much the physical component, it's just the psychological betrayal.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

Well, and as I got older, I think I a lot of my anger shifted from Ashley and her boyfriend to DHS, you know, because there were signs before that. Yeah. The extension cord broke skin. I I had cigarettes put out on me. Um I I had bruises and scrapes, you know, just from being hit or pushed down. And and my question always as an older kid looking back, because I couldn't get away from it, it haunted me every day. Right. Why did DHS allow this to continue? Yeah, why didn't you step in? Why would you even allow unsupervised visits with a woman who murdered her son? I don't I don't care what the plea bargain was. Right. Why would you ever allow that? And and I live as a as a kid taking it personal. Right. Maybe maybe it was me, maybe it was my fault that I was there.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

And I think that's the natural thing as a as a kid. You know, there's certain things that occurred in my life that I internalized, yeah, blame myself for uh that were totally out of my control. Right. I had no physical power to resist, yeah. I had no ability to change the circumstance. You are a a victim. And you know, in some ways, you know, you you are the most vulnerable of anything in their ecosphere. And you know, unfortunately, some of us uh I was benefit of not having uh, you know, this occurred to me, but like you, I mean, we can't control who our parents are. Right. And some of us have parents that are very imperfect and sadistic in in ways and are the manifestation of horrible, horrible things. And the children are the ones that suffer from it short term and long term. You know, we never escape it. It's just how do we get beyond it? Right, it happened. It was horrible. What do you do with it? And that's easier to say as an adult who survived and and gotten on the other side, but as a child and an adolescent going through this, carrying these burdens through life, you know, that's where the pivotal points come up. And I know you battled through that. One of the things that uh has struck me, you know, in talking to people that have gone through trauma and found faith in Christ, you know, this is something that gets thrown up a lot to us Christians. You know, how could a loving God let something as horrible as happened for a long time? And and that that's something that I held, you know, uh God and contempt of. You know, that was one of my big reasons not to, you know, fall in line with the beliefs of Christianity was that loving God concept and the horrors that I had seen happen, that I had experienced and I continued to see. Right. Um, how did you reconcile that?

SPEAKER_06 21:22

I I don't know. I lived years with if you're an all-knowing, all-powerful, speak the world into existence, God, why would you how could you let those things happen, you know, to not just me, but other innocent children? And um it took a long time for me to finally realize the things that were hurting me were also hurting God. And I I may not have a an answer, and I've grown to be okay with not having an answer with some things. I've just had to tell myself maybe my mind is not. Supposed to understand some things. Um, but when I finally realized that all of the times that I was hurting so desperately, whether physically or uh mentally, that all the times where I was in such anguish just from remembering my past, God was right there the whole time. Arms wide open. You know, I I think of it now like in myself as being a father. If either one of my sons were ever hurting, I I'm right there. Oh, yeah. I'm there to pick him up and let let me love you. Let me let me make you feel safe. And I was so immature for so many years, and I'm so bitter that I didn't want, I didn't want to believe that. Right. Um I was believing the lie, you know, that that Satan had planted that it was God's fault. It was God who who made me go through that. And then the other lie, it was my fault. Whatever misconception that I had developed as an immature child, like it was my fault. But when I finally realized God was there the whole time, and I could either continue to be a slave to it and be miserable and hate every day and have nightmares every night, or I could find peace and forgiveness, not just forgiveness for the people that had hurt me, but forgiveness for myself and forgiveness through Christ. It was at that moment that I finally started, you know, to release a lot of it and move on.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Right, right. And that, you know, that forgiveness component is such a oh man, you know, just growing up and as a younger man, you know, we were always told for forgive, just forgive, unburden yourself. But being able to actually do is is so it's a lot easier said than done. Yeah, yeah. But that is one of the things that Christianity allows you to have the strength to do. And that was that's one of the great things that I've experienced now is is truly understanding your your work in God's plan and don't be burdened by these things. You know, how did you you know transition um from this victimhood mentality to the other side?

SPEAKER_06 24:34

Well, I think to explain how I transitioned, I had to live in, you know, I chose to be a victim. Whether it was conscious or subconscious, I used the crutch of the child abuse. And make no mistake, when I even after I was adopted, Ashley was still in direct contact with me frequently. She had my parents' phone number and she would call every birthday, every major holiday, and it was always the same thing. This is your fault that you were taken away. You deserve what you went through. Um, she had another son who was taken away from her, so once he was taken away, it was the older or younger. He's younger. Wow. Um, you know, it was it's all my fault that all of this happened to her and that I was deserving of everything that I had. So it was like I could not escape her. And so I I felt chained to the victim mentality, which led to years of addiction. Um, you know, I started using drugs and alcohol when I was 14, and by 18, I was addicted to crystal meth. Um, it was in Teen Challenge, where I was court-ordered, I couldn't get away, I couldn't. Um, the harder that I bucked, it didn't matter. I just have to stay longer. And it was in, it was about seven months into that program that I finally broke. And I finally realized like, this is this is my last shot. I had 13 other facilities, 13 other chances. This is the 14th. This is probably the last one. And you're an adult lately. I'm an adult now. This is I'm in the big weeks. Yep. Judge Ohm was like, hey, you you've got to get it. Right. And he didn't really give me an option. He was like, You're gonna get it or I'm gonna make you get it. And I don't know what that man saw in me. I have no clue. Um, but I'm so thankful that he never gave up. I'm so thankful that my adopted parents never gave up. And I put them through literal hell. August, or I'm sorry, July 31st of 2009, my mom and my best friend found me hanging in the barn where I made my first suicide attempt. Um, because of that victim mentality, I was I was done. Yeah, I didn't want to do it anymore. I didn't want to, I didn't want to face the demons that I was dealing with every single day. But it was about seven months in a teen challenge when I probably said, okay, God, I don't know how to get through this. I don't know where to start, but I don't want to do this anymore. And, you know, the hard part that we don't like to talk about in society is you have to sort through that hard stuff. Cause for me, I didn't package it, I didn't package it at all. I just stored it right and was was trying to survive.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Um and it escapes every now and then at the worst time.

SPEAKER_06 27:16

Yes, you know, and and the the longer that we keep the hard things in our life hidden, the longer that Satan can use them to keep you bound down. And and you know, the word says if you bring the darkness to the light, you'll find peace, you'll find healing. And so that's when I started sorting through all of it, and that's when I started rationalizing things. And don't get me wrong, I didn't get an answer for everything. Right. But it was through Jesus where I found peace in not having an answer because he was the answer. And and people look at me like I'm crazy even now as an adult when I tell them that I forgave Ashley. Why would you forgive it? Why would you tell her that that's right? That's not that's not where forgiveness is. Forgiveness is so commonly misunderstood. It's not right and wrongs, it's not letting people back in. It's not saying that what you did was okay. It's literally just saying I have to forgive you and I have to move on. Yeah, you know, if if if Ashley went to the feet of Jesus and said, Jesus, you're Lord, you're the savior. I'm I'm sorry, I repent for all of my sins. Do you think Jesus would question her at all? So what right do I have?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Right. And that's so and and honestly, I haven't fully appreciated. But you just brought up some things that uh, you know, what forgiveness really is, is to me, is first of all, it's an unburdening of you having to carry it anymore. And the other key part of it, and this is the part that that I kind of have lost, and it it just became very poignant to me, is it's turning that person's fate over to Jesus Christ. That's right. To God. That's correct. It's taking it off your plate and it's giving it to God. And in doing that, you can move forward. That's correct. And you're not anchored and burdened by that to the degree that that you you are when you're carrying that anger, that resentment, you know, all of those things that haunt you and hang on you and weigh you down.

SPEAKER_06 29:34

The unforgiveness is literally just me handcuffing myself to someone who doesn't care. Right. It's it's the unforgiveness is allowing that person to rule my life, not not come in when they want to rule it. I was bound by that. And to me, forgiveness was the key that reached down and undid the lock.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Amazing. You know, a lot of before I became Christian, I had my own ways of dealing with that. Basically, it was energy conservation, is what I looked at. I was running nonstop all the time. I didn't have the energy, didn't want to give it to that person that wasn't worth giving it to. That was my deal. I'm not gonna waste any more of my time with you.

SPEAKER_06 30:16

And you don't realize how much energy you're actually putting toward that person until you finally find that forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Right.

SPEAKER_06 30:22

And it's like the biggest weight that has ever been lifted off of you a breath of fresh air.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yep. It allows you to live your life again because they are controlling it without even being present.

SPEAKER_06 30:32

Yes, you know, they are continuing to manipulate your life as long as you're hanging on to that resentment and um I actually had an opportunity to talk to Ashley after Teen Challenge, and my wife Hannah was there with me. She was there for the phone call, and in which I told her, I forgive you. And I think this is important to note too. Um How did she respond to that? Oh, not well. Not well at all. Um, you know, uh what do I need to be forgiven for? Again, it was the same thing over and over. This is your fault, this is stupid. There's I've done nothing wrong. Um, and and why I say I think this is important to note, you're not always gonna get a good response.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

Right.

SPEAKER_06 31:15

And if I'm being honest, I expected a good response. I expected things to be rainbows and butterflies and good feelings afterwards, and I was met with uh lots of hate.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Venom.

SPEAKER_06 31:30

Yep, and I was confused. And honestly, I kind of went off a little tangent back, you know, at God, like what is this? If it was what I was supposed to do, why wasn't it received? Right. And that's I kind of was I had to settle with you work on you. I'm supposed to work on me. And he will work on her.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Right.

unknown 31:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 31:59

And again, there was a piece of that that it was me wanting to grab and control, and that's not for me to do. That's that's for God to work out. Right. So you're not always gonna get the answer that you expect.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

No, and you know, that's something that again, it's it's your relationship with God. Yeah. You may have preconceived notions of what it's gonna be, you and it may be what you want, because that's that would be optimal. That would feel great. Everything's validated, you know, if it happens this way and it doesn't happen that way. And that's something that with just age experience, but also faith, yeah, that you start being able to absorb so much better. Yeah, you enter into situations now, at least I do, while I have my expectations. Part of my expectation is it's not gonna go as expected. It's happened so many times that you know it is not something that sets me back tremendously anymore. And when I was younger, it would wreck me. Oh, yeah. Or it would result in a big fight or a lashing out or going out and drinking or going on a bend or you know, whatever, however you you uh, you know, embody that. But um, it became an excuse to act out. Yeah, of course. And to and to question and to doubt. And it it was an open door for Satan to work. That's right. And you know, we just have to understand as humans, as imperfect people, that it doesn't always go as planned. You know, and there is that, you know, that component that you can't just, and it may not go as planned multiple times in a row. Right. That doesn't mean you give up and sit back. You learn, learn, well, okay, why what happened? How was this influenced? Was it out of my control or was it in my control? Um, you know, but there's another component to this in dealing with the past when you are in the situation you are now as a father, as a husband, as a leader in the department and in the community, you know, you carry some responsibility for healing yourself. Right. You know, because you carry you can't you're influencing other people with the burdens you're carrying. Have you ever felt that?

SPEAKER_06 34:41

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's an interesting situation because in the position that I'm in now, um I I feel people looking at me and and I can sense how people are expecting me to react. And I'm very thankful in a weird way for everything that I went through and endured as a child because it has formed me into uh, you know, my wife likes to compare the two of us. I'm the calm and she's the storm. Um, number one, in the field that I work in, you can't be a storm. Right. You have to be calm. It doesn't matter the circumstance. You can be um, you know, very unsteady underneath the surface, the surface level, you have to be I mean, ready to perform. Um and and something that I've learned, and it started with Ashley. My reaction is gonna dictate what else, you know, comes next. Right. And um even as a five-year-old, if I can stay calm, if I can stay quiet, if I can stay focused, everything else won't be as bad. Yeah, protecting granny. That's right. Yeah, I I met um four biological siblings when I was 13 on my dad's side who were all older than me. And it was during a situation um, you know, my oldest brother um relapsed on meth. Um, and I was actually staying with him the weekend that he relapsed and tried to um he can say what he wants to, but he was trying to kill his wife just you know, with his fists, and my reaction was to go stop it and it didn't work out well for me. Um he beat me up really, really, really badly. Um, and sometimes I think of you know, we see situations happening and we want to go intervene. Not everything in life is our responsibility to go intervene. Now, in that circumstance, yes, there needed to be like hard inter intervention, but I think a lot of and I I bring that story up to say that situation taught me a lot of discernment. Right. What do I need to go get involved in and what do I not? What situations are gonna handle themselves, and what situations need to be coached or or led or completely stopped. Right. Um, and I don't think you learn that overnight at all. I think that's a like formed by fire um and a lot of prayer about discernment. Um it's a really odd situation, though.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

No, it is, and it it's uh I'm thinking back to uh we had a trip down to New Orleans one time. I was showing some friends around downtown and had this couple pulled off to the side, and boy, they were into it. Slapping, screaming. I told everybody just walk on. I circled back and go back there to intervene. And uh they both turned on me. Yeah. The woman and the man, you know, to what kind of alternate reality have I just stepped off into? Um, but yeah, you've got to it it's a very nuanced approach, and it's learned through experiences like you've gone through and like that for me. When when do you escalate it? When do you step in? When do you step away? When do you observe? And um, and it's a a very interesting dynamic dealing with people. Yes, it is. And you know, and leadership comes from that as well. You know, how do you lead? You know, what are you looking for from that person? Because everybody's a little different in that. Um you know, some people want more structure, some people want more, you know, uh examples. Um and but the one thing that I've seen is that everybody's watching. Yep. And they are either consciously or subconsciously reacting and analyzing how you're carrying yourself and how you're responding to situations. And you know, coming from the background that you have, not only as a child, but then in that field that you you're in, where you're in those high stress situations, where people's lives are depending on your reaction and your ability to keep you cool.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Use your training, not have it all scrambled in your mind due to panic and and the reaction. Um, you know, that's where I can imagine that your faith kind of comes into play in those situations.

SPEAKER_06 39:44

It absolutely does. I couldn't I could not work in the field that I work in without the strength of Christ. Um a lot of what we do in our field is decision making. We see people freeze and not make decisions, you have to make a decision. Right. Um, and and so that goes back to like the discernment and and the confidence of knowing who who I am, what I'm capable of, the gift that that God has given me uh and how I intend to use it. Right. Um, you know, I think a lot of not just what I do in in my profession, but as a man, integrity speaks volumes. Oh, yeah. You know, if I see someone that doesn't have integrity respectfully, they don't carry a lot of weight. Right. You know, you learn as an adult, if you say something, you better mean it. Right. And I'm not I'm not saying anything, you know, like in a negative connotation, but if I tell one of my firemen, hey, I I'm here for you. Call me anytime. And he calls me at three o'clock in the morning going through a crisis and I sleep through it. You've lost it. Where's the weight of my words? Right. There's a reason why when I go to bed, I I turn my phone on loud. My phone's gonna vibrate all through the day until I go to bed and it goes on loud. Um, you know, if if if I have a medic who um kind of just skates through school and doesn't take it serious, but is able to pass the tests, where's the integrity when we have a cardiac arrest that matters?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Um well, and you know, also, you know, let's just face it, even with all the training, all the experience, you can make mistakes.

SPEAKER_06 41:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

And, you know, that's one of the things that faith also offers me is I worked in a burn unit when I first got out of out of school. We were doing pediatric burn. Horrible. I can't imagine. Horrible. Yeah, um, lost a lot of the kids that came through. It's a long process, it's an extraordinarily painful process. And I didn't have faith back then. I wasn't a Christian, and I couldn't deal with it. Oh, I can't imagine. And in fact, I met with one of the old nurses that I worked with. She had been in this burn unit that was in Greenville, Mississippi. Um, and it was a regional burn unit, so there were people coming in from all over. And we had a couple, two girls, sisters, they were locked inside of a van that was one of these conversion vans that had carpet all the way up, and they found a lighter and caught it on fire and could not get out. Right. So we had those, they both ended up passing away after weeks of care. And that was kind of my endpoint. I just had uh my oldest son at that point, and I was dealing with these children that were going through trauma and dying. Some of them were were making it. And I just told her, I said, I can't do this anymore. I said, How can you do this? And she said, the only thing that keeps me going is I'm damn good at my job. And if I don't do it, who else is gonna do it? And that I mean, she was also a devout, you know, Christian woman, and she talked about you know her calling and and things of that nature, but that stood out, and um, you know, it was still something that I couldn't do. I was carrying it home, uh keeping me up at night. I was seeing my son, right? Uh, and still, you know, it it's uh something that I wrestle with occasionally, uh, you know, 30 years later or 27 years later. Um, but uh just uh yeah, just knowing that you know you're good at what you do and you're gonna make mistakes. But as long as you keep that mindset of you're doing it, if you don't do it, who's gonna do it?

SPEAKER_06 43:52

Yeah, I used to tell people that um when I worked on the ambulance, um I worked multiple jobs. Whenever my wife got pregnant with our first son. Thankfully she's able to stay home. God was good to us. But I worked, you know, a hundred-hour weeks from October of 2020 to my first back surgery, as actually my second back surgery. I worked 100-hour weeks every week between the fire department and the EMS service here. And people would ask me why, why. Well, number one, I've got to survive. Number one, I I've got to provide for my family. But number two, um, this is my ministry. I felt proficient as a paramedic. I felt like I was, I was. I there was no feeling. I was put in situations where I got to directly minister to people, whether it was by talking to them or just taking good care of them, like kind of like that nurse said. Um, I'm not gonna say I was the best at what I do. There are some phenomenal paramedics in this area that I was blessed to learn from. Um, but I know that I was good at at what I did, and I knew that I took my schooling series, and I knew that I took good care of my patients. And there were times where don't get me wrong, we none of us look for recognition. Some might, but they don't last in the field. Right. Um where I'd run into patients after and and you know, kind of like you described about the two girls in the van. Um, I also had a call. Um was a four-year-old who was shot. And my son was two and a half at the time. And when I got in the back of that ambulance, I could see it was my son. And I'd not ever worked a call where I'm I felt that way. Um and again, there's a time and there's a place for emotions, and that wasn't the time or the place for emotions. That was the time to perform and to work. Um she didn't, she didn't survive. And it was not a good circumstance. Um I took some time off not long after that because I had my first back surgery. And when I got actually a day that I brought a uh letter from my surgeon to Chief, hey, I'm gonna be off. One of the captains found me and gave me a letter, and they said, We don't know who this is from. But she came and adamantly wanted to make sure that you got this. And that letter was from that little girl's mom. Wow. And um in the letter was also a photo of the girl, and I had to throw it away, couldn't look at it.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:23

And um a lot of people want to understand that, but I I just couldn't do it. But I still have that letter to this day. Right. And I don't know how the mom knew my name. I don't know how she knew that I worked for two different agencies, I don't know how she knew all of the details that went down that day. Um, but that letter will always be very special to me. Um just from a complete strand a grieving mom reaching out to a member of a fire department, yep, trying to console me or thank me, and it was that letter changed my entire outlook on why I do what I do. Yeah, and it's never about recognition, but that mom knowing without a shadow of a doubt that she had people taking care of her daughter that cared, it meant the world to me.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Right. So people the the power of humanity at times is is just amazing, and how simple acts change lives and change direction and change perceptions. Absolutely. You know, that uh that letter has changed your outlook on what you do, why you do it, how you do it, how your ability to impact people is beyond just that patient that you're taking care of. Right. Um it's uh that's something that has been, you know, uh, and that's in my life to just being able to experience lots of people, you know, that is as well one of those things that carries on, you know, that keeps you grounded, keeps you focusing in the direction of helping, because that's what we want. We want to make an impact and we want to help. We want to leave people in a place better. Oh, absolutely. And we found it. Um, that's how we endure. And uh, you know, that's uh in in the service industries, whether it be medical or um uh fire or a restaurant or whatever you want, where you're engaging with people and you're you're wanting to bring them up. Right.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

You know, you're wanting it's not hard to be a nice person, right? You know, and it seems like society is getting farther and farther away from um from that concept.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

I think it's directed. Yeah, that's the plan for. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, one of the things that uh also just uh kind of going back to what you experienced as a child, and and I include childhood, you know, from the time you can first remember things really till you kind of hit your teen years. Right. You know, I know what those experiences have done for me in my family. But how do you see those how have they affected um you as a father, you as a husband? What are some of the key things that you've uh pulled from those those traumas and used it for how you operate now as a leader in your family?

SPEAKER_06 49:32

You know, I remember the first week after um Hannah brought Nathan home. Um I started wrestling again with trauma. Um I didn't get to be present for Nathan's birth because I had I got COVID literally four days before he was born, and that was the original COVID. Yeah. Um, so I didn't need to be there for his birth, and then Hannah had to go live with her parents for 10 days after the hospital. Our first family photo is me like looking through a glass window like this at my wife and my kid. But they were healthy. Um, but when they finally came home and I held Nathan, you know, for fathers, it's like it's not real until we hold the baby. Right. But don't get me wrong, I love my son and I love the thought of having a son, but when I held Nathan, it was like that next week I started wrestling with trauma again because I was so angry. I was so, so, so, so angry at at Ashley again and the foster care system again because You see that in a yeah, how could you ever allow that? How could you, number one, how could you allow it? And then number two, how could you act on the thoughts that you had? I I I never could have understood it. Um, now let's be real for a second. As a father, there are days where it's three o'clock in the morning and you and your wife are fighting and your baby's screaming and you don't know what to do about it, and it's frustrating. Oh, yeah. I don't care what anybody says, it's frustrating. But you don't have to do something stupid. Right. That baby is just as innocent as they were the the day that they were born. You know, there were days where Hannah and I would have we would be so frustrated at each other and so frustrated that we couldn't help Nathan. And Nathan was a perfect baby. Austin, on the other hand, was he struggled, you know, with withdrawing. And really, I'd probably use Austin as the example. There were days where we were so frustrated we had to put Austin down. We knew he was fed, we knew he was changed, we knew he was safe. Yes, and we had to walk outside.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

Right.

SPEAKER_06 51:41

And we had to talk, and we had to say, hey, you know, I'm not mad at you, you're not mad at me, we're not mad at the at Austin, we're mad at this, we're we're mad at the situation, and we're not even mad, we're just frustrated. Right. We had to reset. And, you know, as a as a father who has been through violent trauma, it has made me overprotective at times over our children where even grandparents, you know, my my parents are I lost my mom in 23, so my mom's not with us anymore. My dad is 92, he he can't he can barely care for himself. So I would never trust our children with him. Um my in-laws are very, very involved with our children. I'm very thankful for that. But in the beginning, part of Nathan's life as a new father, even I was like, nope, no thanks. I love you, but if you're gonna be with our children, I am too. Yeah, and I'm gonna watch everything. And you know, Hannah and I were very, very um clear on rules with our children, and one of the big rules was you don't kiss our kid. And it wasn't because of the abuse that I went through, it was because of COVID. Right. And it's because my experience as a paramedic saying, like what you know, HSV one will do to a kid. Um, and I can remember a situation in which I got into a heated conversation with my father-in-law about kissing our son, and it was like, hey man, I'm his dad. I don't know why I'm having this conversation with you as why you don't understand it. But there have been times I know because of the way that I grew up, that I've been overbearing. Yeah. And not on my children as much as on my home, on the rules. Um, and as we have had our second child and fought through DHS, it it has showed me that overbearance and that overprotection.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Do you feel like you're you're creating that structure so that it doesn't spin out? You know, so you've got more control where you didn't have any control in the past.

SPEAKER_06 53:49

A lot of it too is um like structure and routine for the children. Right. Like I want them, I think that children need safety and security, but I think a lot of safety and security comes through routine. And and I I know that they know this, but I want both of our boys to know that dad's got your back no matter what. 100% as far as the east is from the west, like I've I've got you. But there are also formal things that we have to do as a family, right? You know, like as a as a child, and obviously I don't have this in-depth conversation with our kids, but uh there are things that they can't do. And almost all of them are safety driven. Do they understand them? No. Austin gets in trouble almost every day for trying to stand up on a table and jump off of it. And it's like, dude, you can't do that, right? You know, but what's beautiful is as Nathan Nathan is getting older, I know that he understands those things. And you know, Nathan's not a great example because he's a perfect child. And I don't say that because I'm his dad. He could walk in this room right now and just his mannerisms. I'm so proud of him. Um, Austin's a great kid too. He's just loud. You know, he's he's a lot different. He's the second child. Now I will say this too. A lot of the things that I did with Nathan, I was straight down the pipe. And and I try to do like I try to be like that in in life, anyways. Uh what you see is what you get. This is my expectation. I was way, way, way, way, way too strict with Nathan with everything. I tolerated like nothing. Yeah. And I didn't realize it until we had Austin.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

Yeah, I was guilty of uh, you know, our first child is our experiment. Yep. It's where we put into play what we think it should be and what the reality is. And, you know, I give a lot of forgiveness to my parents because I was the oldest. You know, I was the first. They were kids when they had me. Right. And uh, you know, I hope my son does the same for me and my wife because you're kind of the uh, you know, you know you're the test dummy.

SPEAKER_06 55:58

You know, there's no book on parenting that fits, you know, and and um don't get me wrong, I I feel bad sometimes because Nathan is so delicate. I'll never use I'm disappointed because I know how bad that wrecked me. Right. But if I tell him any he's in trouble, I have to be very careful because it'll ruin his entire day.

SPEAKER_04 56:19

Right.

SPEAKER_06 56:20

You know, where Austin, I'm like, hey dude, come on, you can't do that. And we we do we talk about it, we get through it, and we move on. Nathan, because of how strict I was, and I've had to adjust discipline with him, where it's you know, most parents would probably look at me and go, oh, he's a gentle parent. He and it's like, no, listen, you don't understand. This is all it takes with Nathan, right? Not with Austin, but with Nathan because I was so strict, I got to come at it at a different angle because I don't want to disconnect with them.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

Well, and their personalities, just like you lose to, are totally different. It's like the difference between uh training a Chesapeake and training a golden retriever. You know, a golden retriever, you can look wrong at them and they're gonna want to crawl under you, you know, a Chesapeake. You can beat them over the head with a two by four and they're gonna keep coming back for more, you know. So it uh you know, it's it's a strange dynamic in working with these little uh personalities that you that you get. But you know, the um the thing that uh you know strikes me, you know, looking back and is that firstborn, you know, as well. Um the desire to please and to do right in the eyes of especially your father as a son, because I didn't really have much experience uh beyond just the son and father, and I know what I felt for my dad, I know what I saw with my oldest and and with me. There's a lot of responsibility that we don't realize as young kids having kids, you know, uh, and how the things you say and the things you do impact their whole psychology for the rest of their life. Absolutely. And, you know, that is um it's a powerful thing, good and and bad. But again, back to our earlier conversation, we can't change the past, right? All we can do is grow from it, right? And child rearing is is that as well. But um big part of family, obviously, uh, for us married guys is our wife. Absolutely. So, you know, how has uh your past affected you and Hannah's uh relationship? Um met right after you kind of had your awakening.

SPEAKER_06 58:48

Oh, yeah. So it's really interesting, and I have to brag on Hannah a lot. Um, so I'm sure by now you can assume I had one dream in life, and that was to have a family of my own. Right. I don't know that I've ever had another dream. Um, and I found that dream in Hannah. So I graduated Teen Challenge uh July 15th of 2014, and I met Hannah on August 23rd. So I mean, just just over a month, and it's interesting because the night that we met, we were at a bonfire, small town, you know. Um, we were at a bonfire, and every most everyone knew me there. It's a small town, and I had uh some form of a reputation. She didn't. She was like, Who are you? Tell me who you are. And so basically I trauma dumped and just hit her with all of it. Oh, wow. You know, because she asked, and she's like, Oh, uh, cool. Well, who are you? I was like, I just told you who I and then she said, No, you told me what you've been through. Who are you? Wow. And you know, I she didn't she didn't realize it then, but that was pivotal to me because I didn't know who I was, I had no clue. I just finished sorting through all of my trauma, and now I don't have drugs and alcohol to cover things up. Right. Don't get me wrong, the wounds were still fresh, they still were there. Um, but Hannah never, I don't want to say she didn't care about my past, she cared about my past, but she wanted me to move on in a healthy way, not a hey, you gotta you gotta ditch that, but hey, you're meant for more. And so Hannah and her parents always encouraged me to keep pressing forward. And um Hannah was actually there the day that I last spoke to Ashley. The last phone call I had when I tried to tell her that I forgave her. Right. Of course, I had a meltdown after, you know, super immature, couldn't control my emotions, was pretty upset. Um, but Hannah was always there. She was in those moments, she was quiet, she was firm. Wow. Um how old was yes, so um I was 20 and she was 18. Right. Um and I even the when I realized things were getting serious with with the two of us, I told her, Um, I have to talk to your parents. I have to. Uh, she was actually still in high school. Um and I said, Your parents are gonna find out who I am. Again, because of the reputation I had at school. I was the bad kid at school. A lot of her aunts or two of her aunts work at the school that we both graduated from. And it's a small town. They're going to find out, and I want them to hear it from me, and I want them to hear it from other people. And she hated that idea. Her dad was a 20-year Air Force guy, um, you know, straight and narrow, pretty, I don't want to say pretty strict, but he was a strong father figure. Right. Um, and she was like, that's a terrible idea. We don't need to do that. So we compromised and we did that. Um, and I just remember his name's Rob. I remember sitting down with Rob and Anna, my mother-in-law, and and just doing the same thing, telling them everything. Hey, I just got a rehab. Um I I didn't trauma dump on them, you know. But um I remember Rob, he was watching TV and he hit his laptop in his lap. He looked up over his laptop, over his glasses, and he said, Okay. He probably respected yeah, and and he said, if you go back, you leave my daughter here. And that's all he said. And it was from that moment on, you know, we just started building from the ground up. Um, we both got little jobs. She graduated high school and she started working at Petsmart. I worked at Best Buy, and we had some friends over one night, and I heard about a welding college, and all I saw was money. You know, uh, it was like nine days later, I packed up all my stuff into a 96 Ford F-150 single cab and drove to Morralton, Arkansas. Um, and I attended United Welding Institute for five and a half months, four and a half months. Hannah and I were not we were still together, but that's the longest we'd ever been separated. Right. We lived three houses down from each other and never knew it. Wow. You know, we were separated by just a subdivision. Um, so while we were dating, we saw each other every single day. We were with each other every single day. Um, and that was a big point in our relationship where we had to spend time apart. Yeah. Um, I was going to pursue work on the road. We couldn't do that. Our relationship wasn't built for that. I took one job on the road and got burnt. Um, not physically, I got burnt by a friend. Um, and that was just like, okay, uh, if I'm if I'm going to have a family, and if Hannah's gonna be the person I'm gonna have a family with, I have to stay home. And so I got a job here. And like I said, her dad was the one who planted the seat about the fire department. But Hannah, throughout our relationship, has been the person that I have subconsciously wanted to make proud or wanted to support or wanted her approval. Um, but she's also been my rock. Right. You know, don't get me wrong, no marriage is perfect. And in our marriage, we have been through some really, really deep valleys. I'm not perfect, Hannah's not perfect. We both have done things to um to the detriment of our relationship and of our marriage. Um but there are things and times that I'm sure that Hannah would say that I was her rock, but what she doesn't realize it is that she has been a foundation of mine and and a pivotal person into the man that I have become.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

And um, I don't think she grasps the depth of that. Well, and I you know, and that's one of the beauties about a healthy marriage, if people think a healthy marriage, that it's all you know, rainbows and sprinkles. Yeah. Um in my opinion, having been married and been with my wife since we were teenagers, um, you know, a healthy marriage is one that you make it through difficult times where you've got extreme differences, where you have said things or done things that have wronged the other, and you come to an understanding and a forgiveness and you move forward for the betterment of the family and of and for you, and you don't continue to repeat those things. Right. You know, we a lot of it for me is mutual respect. Yep. And respect is not fear. And that those get That's a good point. Very intertwined. You know, a lot of People think that you know, because someone fears you, you they get rid of No, those are those are two different things. You can create fear and you can get a reaction from it, and you can control people through fear, but it's shallow. Yeah, exactly. And it's resentful. Um respect is something that's earned over time. And it's through the giving and receiving on both parts. And that's tough, man. Yes, it is. Yeah, especially to hard-headed uh you know people.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:30

Yeah, and Hannah and I are are polar opposites in our personalities in aspects, but we're also very similar. Um, but what I find so funny about marriage is sometimes the hardest thing to do with your spouse is just communicate. That's it. You know, there there have been so many times where Hannah has had to tell me, like, hey, I can't read your mind. Or I've had to tell her the same thing, like, I can't read your mind. Although it may be a concept or something that you just expect for me to understand, sometimes you just have to communicate it. And I can remember um the biggest fight that Hannah and I have ever been in, ever, and our marriage was about halfway through our foster journey with our youngest son. I mean, we were yelling and screaming in our garage, and I don't even remember what it was about now, honestly. But it was during the fight we realized that we weren't mad at each other. We were mad at DHS. We were both mutually frustrated with the situation. We were both hurting. We both wanted uh to desperately adopt our son. And it was during that fight where I remember telling her, I'm not mad at you. I'm mad about the situation. And then it she just kind of was puzzled and she was like, Well, I'm not mad at you either. I'm mad about the same thing. And it was like a light bulb went off for her. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

She was like, Well, we're right there together. We can be mad together, a united front.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:54

Right. Um, and and I see couples, you know, Hannah and I uh lead a marriage ministry at our church. Um we're leaders in a in a marriage ministry in our church, rather. And it it always, always, always, always comes down to communication. It's the same thing as the fire service. When things go bad, it's because communications are poor.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:13

Every single time. And it's so weird that the person that you choose to do life with, it can be so uncomfortable sometimes to have conversations. And that's one thing that I'm so proud of about our marriage is we've vowed to have the hard conversations.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:26

No matter how hard they are. Let's have them now. That way they don't fester. And build up.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:32

You know, and and one of those things and uh that we continue is it doesn't end. You know, it doesn't the understanding of your spouse and learning who they are. We just have to face certain things. The women need to face this and the men need to face this. We are wired differently. Correct. For a reason. That's right. Men focus on certain aspects of situations differently. That we prioritize things differently, and we can't help that. That's how we are wired, that's how we're created by God. Women, same way. They prioritize things differently, they look at situations differently. Nothing wrong with either one, but we have to understand that we're all working towards the same goal. It just may look different. They look a little different. And as long as we can understand that, that there's no ill will intended, that it's not about you know not paying attention and not caring. Right.

unknown 1:09:33

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Maybe we don't care as much about the same thing, you know, to the degree, but we care. Yes. And we're trying to get there. You know, that's one of the things that uh it just continues to to evolve. And uh, you know, marriage, marriage is a a challenge. It's not easy. It's it's not easy. It's not easy, but it's so worth it. Very much worth it. It is the the structure for the next generation to grow and be protected in. That's right. It is your opportunity to teach and foster. And I know that's important to you coming from where you came from. You see the importance of that, and and you having that one goal, I want a family. You know, that was something that was always very important. I wanted a family and I wanted to have it young. I wanted to be a young dad. Right. Part of it was because I wanted to experience life with my children. But the other part of it too, because I came from a background where protection was a big thing, physical protection, right? You know, having that security. Yeah, I wanted to be a young, able-bodied protector. I get that. You know, and you know, it it that was an important part for me. That was a calculated part. And luckily my wife was on board with with all of that. Now, the thing, the reality is that we were blessed and that our environment changed dramatically from what I had experienced growing up, and I didn't have to, you know, end up doing that. But you were able to. But if it needed to be, it happened. So, you know, marriage is just uh it it that it's a very it's a dynamic, but it is like you said, it's so worth it. Right so worth it. And having that partner in it that can be your rock and you can be their rock when the rest of the world is chaos. You can control what's in your home. Yeah, that can be your sanctuary, right? And everything else kind of grows from there. You can absorb a whole lot with a good partner that you probably couldn't on your own.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:52

I couldn't imagine um being married to someone where it was a struggle. You know, again, don't get me wrong, there are days where we just don't jive. And it is what it is. You know, all of us have bad days. Um, but I'm so blessed um being married to Anna, it's easy. And it's a privilege. I mean, it we're yeah, I said something the other day, and she was like, You think we're still friends? Like, she like almost got emotional. I was like, sweetie, you're my best friend. Right. And and I'm so thankful because our kids deserve that. You know, they they need to see that not only are we husband and wife, but we're also friends. Um, and I love that you said that you you wanted to be a young dad because you wanted to experience life with your children. And you know, I have friends that have really big dreams. Maybe it's wrong for me not to have big dreams, but I'm living my dream. Yeah. I now my dreams are shifting to like, like you said, I want to experience life with my children, I want our children to see uh life. But no mom and dad are always here, you know. Um and kind of like you said, I've never had to uh be in a position to openly defend my children, thank God. Um but when they've had small situations where they've gotten their feelings hurt or physically have gotten hurt, um of course they want the nurture and the love of mom, but they look at me and it's like they know. They they know without a shadow of a doubt, you know, dad's got your back. Oh, yeah, period. Yeah, so feel safe. Yes, it it's a good feeling because um it would be wrong for me to say that I didn't have that because uh my adoptive parents were great. But before that that's what set the fire in my you know inside of me for my children.

unknown 1:13:46

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:47

They'll never experience that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

Exactly. So and them recogn they will recognize that as well, and they will hopefully carry it on to that next generation, to your grandkids. You know, you coming up through the foster um program or I guess program or uh department, however you want to look at it, the process, um being exposed to that and then choosing to foster a child yourself.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:17

Well, so that's an interesting story. Yeah. Um, Hannah had a lot of trouble with Nathan. Uh, you know, she developed um um, you know, hypertension toward the end of her um her pregnancy, and um she had preclamp pre-eclampsia, and the delivery was um it wasn't the best for her. Um and then she struggled with postpartum depression, um, the postpartum anxiety. And so when it came to the talk of a second child, because we both I think she will admit now she didn't want a second child, but she knew that I wanted one. Right. Um, she was willing to try it again. And, you know, we got it, we started going through the process. She got off birth control and started uh slowing back on certain things, and I identified quickly that that was not we weren't gonna do that. I wasn't gonna lose my wife. It's terrifying. Yeah, I wasn't gonna lose my wife to the possibility of a second child. So I sat we sat down and I said, Sweetie, you know, I don't I don't think this is good for our family. I don't, I don't think we need to try for another kid. We were both mutually happy with Nathan. Well, uh our pastor preached a sermon like two weeks later about fostering, and it lit a fire inside of Hannah, and she brought it to me and she said, Hey, I really want to look at fostering to adopt. And I said, All right, cool. Absolutely not. And I usually am not that direct firm of, you know, I'm usually all right, let's talk about it. And that one was an absolutely not. Um no, I want nothing to do with uh DCFS, DHS, foster care. I don't want those people in my home. Like, not that I had anything to hide, but you know, in the state of Arkansas, the DHS cars are a white vehicle with a the red state seal on the door. I can spot them from a mile away. And and again, like this is just a manifestation of trauma coming back up. Right. Um, and it was childish of me, you know. Um, and it crushed Hannah. She wanted to do it so badly, but I was like, nope, we're not doing it. I and I use the excuse of I don't want to fall in love with the child just to watch them go back to you know the same home. Yeah, and I and I I say that as an excuse, but I I went and talked to my mom and my dad about it, or my dad about it. Um one of the things that I regret is my mom, um, she never knew that we got to open our home as fosters before she passed. Um I regret that a lot. But it is what it is. Yeah. I talked to my dad about it, and he said, son, you have to remember that the children that you bring into your home, your home may be the only place that they ever experience love in their life. Not in their childhood, not in their situation, in their entire life. And that wrecked me. And I went and talked to Hannah about it, and I said, you know, why don't we just try it? And I didn't want to at all. Been praying about it, talking to guys about it, and finally we we submitted. And I was hopeful, if I'm being honest, I was really hopeful that all the preconceived notions that I had as a child that I developed as a child of the system being broken, caseworkers, you know, not fighting for the kids, you know, judges not doing their part. Um, I was really hoping that that was just an immature mind that I had, and all those all of those thoughts would be broken. Like, like the myths would be busted. Right. And uh no, they were confirmed. And that made it so hard, you know. Uh, we were fortunate in in a sense that we were uh placed with a child. Um, and there were some uh circumstances surrounding uh that, you know, that um were God winks. It was God, he had his hand on our on our son, on our foster son at the time. Um but as his case progressed, a very extended family member from another state who didn't even know his name reached out to DHS as a whole, not our county, not our caseworker, just as a whole.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:34

And he uh to back up, uh-huh, this was a newborn.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:37

Yeah, he was newborn. He was 10 days old when we brought him home. Wow. Um, abandoned at the hospital, wasn't even named. Um DHS named him, and we changed it. Yeah, but um an extended family member came into the picture, and I could not believe the system, how they it felt like they fought for this person that didn't know this kid, didn't know his mom. Um it was really hard, you know, because it was like Hannah and I knew how much love we had available for this child, and we were developing relationships with him, and as he got older, he's he loved our son, and our son loved him. We never once treated him like a foster child, we never once treated him like anything other than our own son. And another thing that I'm so thankful for, our entire family did the same thing. He was our son from the get-go. He was accepted. Yeah, and actually, uh, one of the circumstances surrounding his case, something that happened um after this certain thing came up. Uh, a caseworker came to our house and said, Hey, this is it. Like, you'll be able to adopt this child. If you plan on changing his name, you need to go ahead and like figure it out and call him that from now moving forward. We we decided to name him after my younger brother on my mom's side, who I reunited with in 2015. We went viral for a post on Facebook. It's a crazy story, but I I was able to meet him and he turned out to be a an amazing man. Um, he was adopted by a wonderful family. They live in Texas. He's a great kid. Call him a kid, he's a grown man. Um, but we it to honor my brother, we decided to name our son after him. And there were times where caseworkers would come into the house and address him as his like DHS name, and I'd be like, hey, all due respect. Y'all told us to call him Austin. So it I expect for you to call him Austin. Right. I don't want him to get confused. And I had a couple caseworkers like look at me kind of crazy, and it's like, hey, I'm not joking. Like, if you're gonna tell us that this is our son, then this is our son. And you know, things started pointing in a direction that honestly scared me and Hannah. We thought we were going to lose him, so we hired an attorney uh to protect ourselves and to fight for our son, and you know, by the grace of God it worked out. And um, we were able to adopt him in March of uh 2025. Wow. And it was um I imagine that's a big weight lifted all the it was so yeah, it was so weird too because it like came full circle for me. Right. It was a chapter of my life that I didn't know was left unwritten, and then when we were placed with our son, um I'll explain it to you like this. I'll tell you that my my dad as a kid, I asked him, how why did you want me? Why in the world would you want to take my case on? Why would you want to love me? And he said, the day that they dropped me off from the hospital, I cried the entire way from the hospital to their house. The caseworker basically showed up and said, Here he is, I'm leaving. All right. Because she couldn't deal with it. My mom took me, gave me to my dad, and I said, My dad said within minutes I had quit crying, and I actually, you know, lifted my head, looked at him and smiled at newborn, you know. And I remember him telling me that story because he said in that moment, he looked at my mom and said, Thelma, this one's ours. Wow. And, you know, she was like, Well, that's not really how this works. And he said, I know we're gonna fight for this one. When I met Austin in the hospital, because he was in the NICU for 10 days, the day we brought him home was the first day that I got to meet him. And I still was skeptical about the foster care process and him as a whole. Right. This day I have a I have a photo uh that Hannah took. I was in the NICU at children's and she handed Austin to me. And in minutes, he rolled over and he smiled at me. And I can't express the emotion that I felt right then. Right. Because it was like I was looking at a baby who was me 30 years prior.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Yeah, but you're gonna protect.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:52

And that fire of it that's all it took for me. It was that happening, and it was like, that's it. Yeah, this is our son, period. And I'm so thankful that God allowed that adoption to go through. Right. Um and just as a little added bonus, the day of our adoption, um I took off of work from the fire department and I just told the guys, hey, I'm not gonna be at work today. That's the day we're adopting our son. A third of my fire department showed up. Wow. And every single, every guy that came up the stairs, every like next guy, I was boo-hooing. I was just like, why, you know, it was amazing because I have my family that I dreamed and fought so hard for. I've also got a second family, my guys at the fire department, and it was such a special moment. Oh, together. I took the photo of us in the courtroom and framed it. It's on a two by three uh canvas in my office.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:47

And uh when you're you know, the the first thing that strikes me is just that innate what we're built for as men, and that's to protect. That's right. You know, when you see this innocent, helpless being there, and you know the gravity of what you can offer and what you can do, and also if you're not able to do that, it that is kind of that intersection point. Are you gonna fight for everything you got with everything you've got to achieve this this goal? I mean, it digs into at that point, you know, and I I had the wonderful experience of not having our children during COVID and being present right there, you know, when when they popped out and uh won a natural birth, one c section, which was terrifying, but um, because we had all sorts of complications, but um it was still the you know when you first hold that child, you know, and the gravity of what the your life is changing, you know, and how it's changing. And I really it blows me away the people that are either unwilling to feel it or unable. I know. And that is one of the things that goes back to you know, reflecting on on childhood or or hearing stories like yourself. It's like, what happened to these people? Yeah. Out of all the crazy stuff that can happen in life, all the trauma that can happen to you or how they were raised, how can you deny that piece?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:36

And you know what I've what I've noticed, I've done a lot of research into my biological parents because I always wanted to know why. And it wasn't actually until this last year when we started getting help from people on the internet um where I started finding more details. It seems to me that it's like this perpetual cycle of abuse. Right. Because both of my parents, my biological parents come from horrible situations. And at some point, when does the cycle break? Yeah. And and I'm I'm fortunate because I found a, I didn't find I was given an opportunity through an adopted family who loved me fiercely. I put my adoptive parents through literal love. Loved you through a lot. They they never, and I tried so hard to push them away. A lot of it was intentional. Me trying to push them away to try to protect myself from the loss because I expected them to leave or hurt me like everybody else had. It was all the love of my parents. Number one, finding peace and forgiveness in Jesus, and then having Hannah to help lay the groundwork now as an adult to move forward. Um, but but it seems like it's this perpetual cycle of abuse. And and I don't know if I ever made the conscious decision of it stops here, but rather I know for me it was like I have to do better. Right. I want a family. I can't have a family unless I'm healthy mentally, spiritually, physically. Um unless my marriage is healthy.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:32

Your marriage is healthy, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:34

Unless we have the foundation. And I I think that's probably one of my greatest successes in life, if you want to say that, is having a strong marriage, having a strong partner that I that I love and adore in Hannah, but also the comfort of our home for our children.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:51

Yes, absolutely. I think that for all of us, that is our greatest success. It's the next generation and it's the Fostering of that next generation. You know, my goal has always been with my children. It's not a competition. Right. I want them to be monumentally better than me every level. Absolutely. That is my success in life. That's my contribution to society going forward is these guys that I grow and nurture and protect and try to feed information in on my successes and my failures and keep them in the straight and narrow, you know. But one of the when I was doing a lot of road uh travel for clinics, driving back and forth to Mississippi, this was when talk radio was kind of big. And there was a uh show called Dr. Laura came on in the evenings when I was driving back, and she said something. We were brand new uh to having a child. We had just had our first, and uh she said something in in these words that there's a misconception that the child is number one.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:13

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:14

And she said it's a misconception because that child is dependent on the relationship of the parents first for how they are nurtured, how they are fostered through life, all of that. If your marriage is crap, then the child's upbringing is going to reflect it. Absolutely. And so her biggest thing was focus on your marriage, focus on your partner, make sure y'all are okay, and the child will benefit multitudes from that. You know, don't let the child be the division of your marriage, don't fight over the kid. Fight over yourself to make yourself better, and the child will be fostered through you. I absolutely agree. And that's just kind of held on. We're not perfect at it by any stretch, but we have tried to maintain that. We have recognized that our marriage is the centerpiece to everything else. It can be the centerpiece for beautiful, wonderful things, and it can be the centerplay to the bomb going off, you know. And it you have that power in it, and it's kind of scary when you step back and think about it. But uh, because there are those times where you get in these arguments, you get in these like irreconcilable what it feels like in the heat of the moment. And then the next day comes around. Yeah, well, and you're like, how close did we just come to doing something so stupid? And look at where we're at.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:53

I think it's important to emphasize that too. Like, no, no marriage is perfect. Those those situations are going. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and then it's a matter of what you decide to do with it. Right. And and again, it all comes down to communication. Absolutely. If you'll just sit down and look eye to eye and talk about the hard things, that next day comes. Well, a lot of the times we can look back and laugh. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:17

So but it's uh at the heat of the moment, that's good. It's pretty serious. Well, we've covered some cool topics and some amazing stories. Um, talk about the future and kind of where we're at right now, where we're we're all going, where y'all are going. You've got your kids, you've got your family, you've got a great career, you're touching lives, you're saving lives. Um pretty rewarding on multiple ways. Um, where do you see the future going?

SPEAKER_06 1:31:45

You know, Hannah and I live a really simple life. Um, I'm I'm very thankful for the the career that I have with the fire department. Um I I would obviously like to progress in my career at the fire department. Um but for our future, I just want to see us raise strong kids. Um, you know, we've we've developed a relatively strong following on our social medias, and we're trying to be good stewards of that by by sharing our story. And and a lot of what we've noticed about our social media is we gr we gain a lot of traction with the story. Again, like I said previously, I'm not ignorant to the fact that I know that I have one of those stories that can be you can grab onto, but we're also trying to show people through the power of social media that life goes on. Right. You can have a positive, strong, happy life no matter where you come from. Exactly. You still got to sort through some dirt to get there. But I think for my family, our future looks like growing stronger together, discipling our sons, and and really just trying to be better for them every day. Yeah. Because we still fall short. But when we fall short with our children, another thing that I'm the most proud of about our family, it's okay to apologize to your children. When you get it wrong, you know, we the one situation that I think of, we had a ministry or a um a uh life group one night. Nathan did something, it was one of those days. I was already on that the tip of the iceberg. All right. Nathan did something that we've and told him multiple times not to do, and I reacted stronger than I should have. And I raised my tone and I really, really got onto him pretty harshly. I couldn't focus on life group. I couldn't focus on the conversations, and Hannah was like, What is wrong with you? And I said, I need to go home. I need to apologize to her boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:45

And when I got home, Nathan had stayed up. My mother-in-law couldn't get him to go to bed because he wanted to talk to dad. And I could see how much it affected him. And when I got home, he wanted to run to me and Daddy, I'm sorry I did this. And I was like, Hold on, let me stop you. He had held on. Yeah, let me stop you. You yes, you're not supposed to do that, but I handled that wrong. And so I think for our future, I want to maintain that level of a relationship where we can be vulnerable with our children and with my, you know, my wife and I and just disciple our children. If if that's all that my future looks like, discipling our children, I would love to reach out to people and help them understand that life it is hard, but it gets better. Right. I would love for that to manifest somewhere. But if all I do is disciple my children, I'm I'm more than happy with that. Yeah. Well, it's it's fulfilling.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:34

Absolutely. Being a guy that's a little bit your senior and you know, getting into the grandparent phase, you know, that is the most rewarding thing is seeing your children taking all of that you've put into them and applying it in their own way into their lives and into the next generation and to their relationships with their wives, you know, and it is uh it it's kind of the completion of that circle. And uh so I fully understand it. You at your age recognizing that. That that's what really impressed me with you. And I know it's because you've been through a lot. Life is all about what you experience. Right. Some of us get dumped a lot early on, and it's a lot to process, but in the end, when you get through there, you've got a lot more wisdom at an earlier age. Right. Um, and it gives you kind of some more direction. I mean, at your age, when I was your age, I mean, it was just just the chaos of of just work, work, work. You know, of course, me, me, me, you know, adventure, adventure, you know, go on doing and uh not really thinking the bigger picture of the impact um that uh this next generation can bring. But uh really really cool stuff, what we as fathers, uh, whether you can have them biologically or the op you know, the opportunity to foster how we can impact the the future um with a a family structured in in God's eyes and God's plan and through us as instruments in that. So it's uh very, very rewarding. Well, and do something a little different this time. You're you're gonna be our guinea pig on this. So we're gonna do some rapid fire questions that we formulated. No, no wrong, right answers, you know, but I'm gonna throw them, throw them your way and and see where we land. Um what do you think is your most underrated virtue?

SPEAKER_06 1:36:49

Um underrated virtue, probably um humility.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:57

I think that uh humility is looked at weakness. Look, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:02

It's what I always saw it as, but it's probably the strongest thing that you can possess.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:06

I think that um the older that I get, the more that I see that pride gets us nowhere. Yeah. Unless it's a healthy pride in my family and my sons in my faith. Right. Um but uh yeah, definitely humility.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:19

I'm full agreement. Uh most dangerous vice.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:23

Oh, um pride. Pride. I mean, uh what no matter the no matter the the facet for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:33

Uh favorite family tradition that y'all have stabbed.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:36

Um so Hannah and I have decided that Christmas mornings are ours. No parents, no in-laws, no other family. Um we share that intimate time with our boys. Um now we we have a big family gathering after, but um I I that's probably a cliche answer, but to me, that is something um very special. And and I'll give you another one that's a little bit more practical. We have dinner with each other every single day at the dinner table, no matter the circumstance. We're going to sit down at the table, we're gonna look at each other, and we're gonna talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:17

And um actually that's probably my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:20

Yeah, that's a that's a cool one. We have had various times in our lives where that has been a pivotal, uh complete part of our daily routine, and it it is that time for engagement. Absolutely. Um one book every young man should read. Fearless.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:38

Yep. About Adam Brown. Um what what a man to live up to, that found faith. Um, yeah, if if you've if there are young guys out there that have not read Fearless, highly recommend it. Powerful, powerful.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:55

Um biggest lie culture tells a man.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:59

Um you have to be okay all the time. It's okay not to be okay. Right. If you're not okay, everyone in your close circle, how are you gonna how are you gonna lead them? How are you gonna foster them? How are you gonna feed them? Right. How are you gonna support them? It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to seek resources.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:20

Yeah. Yeah, we get told that suck it up. Yep, yep. There's a time and there's a place. Right. Um biggest lie culture tells women. Oh goodness. Where to start on that?

SPEAKER_06 1:39:33

Um they're being attacked. Absolutely. Um probably you have to lead your household to me. You know, uh if if a man's not gonna lead, I can understand probably the feeling of wanting to step up. Um, but that's our job. Right. That's our job as men and as fathers. Um, and my heart breaks for the ladies that are single moms or that are having to fill both roles. I don't know, I don't know how you could do that. Yeah, um, but I I would also go back to that for the ladies that it you have to be okay all the time. That's I I think that works for both.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:12

Yeah. Agreed, agreed. Most important quality in a husband.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:18

Um, integrity.

unknown 1:40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:21

Because it it bleeds into every aspect of um your your role as a husband. Yep. How you how you communicate, how you talk, how you uh handle situations, how you defend your wife when nobody else is around, because it's gonna have to happen eventually. Yep. Um I think that that is definitely king, in in my opinion. Yeah. Most important quality of a father. Um gentleness. Again, there's a time and there's a place. Um yes, we have to be firm, but you can be firm and gentle at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:55

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is a a nuance, but it is just like with respect, it carries so and humility, all those kind of fall in together. Very powerful.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:09

I like what you said earlier about fear. Can we instill fear and get what we expect? Absolutely, but it'll be an inch deep. Yep. Why would I why would I want to do that? At at 18, my kids will leave and I'll I'll never see him again. Yep. And you'll have the resentment. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:26

Uh what scares you today?

SPEAKER_06 1:41:29

Uh the world that my children are going to grow up in. For sure. Um I can't protect them from everything. But all I can be is a, you know, someone I hope, I pray uh someone that they can always fall back to.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:45

And you can prepare them.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:46

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:47

Yeah. That's one of the things that being knowledgeable about what that world is out there and preparing them and trying to provide them with the tools to deal with it. And impact it and change it. Because it's gonna be up to them. That's right. You know, we can only do so much. Uh what gives you hope?

SPEAKER_06 1:42:05

Uh, my faith. And and my experiences with my faith. The one thing in my life that I know um most of all you know, my dad quote he shared a quote, it's always darkest before the dawn. It doesn't matter how dark it gets, eventually it's gonna get light again. Um and in Jesus, it's so much easier to see the light because he is the light. If I keep my eyes trained on him, just like all of the trials and tribulations that Job went through, he lost everything, but his eyes remain focused on Jesus. If I can remain focused on Jesus, I know that my steps out of that muck and mire are gonna be so much easier.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:53

It is a guiding light. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:56

Well, Tracy, I can't thank you enough for joining us today. It's been a great conversation. Yes, sir. And I look forward to having more of these with you as you continue on your journey, and we continue on our journey here as well. And uh glad to have you as a part of our experience with extreme sensibility and a part of our community.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:19

Yeah, I can't say thank you enough for just, like I said, even asking me to come be a part of it. Uh you're doing a great thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:24

Well, we're trying, we're trying, but well, buddy, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:29

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Yes, sir.